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Jun 22 15 8:16 PM

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Male tigers killed by lions

The current accounts as of now add up to a rough estimate of aprox. 60 male tigers killed by lions in fair fights, give or take with in the margin of error.  The number is a conservative estimate, Beatty's records showing a total of 52 tigers killed, was generously narrowed down to include only 18.  Compensating for any females killed or gang ups with in that total number. This stands in stark contrast to the tigers side, where only a few adult male lions have been killed by tigers in fair fights through history.  With all the accounts added up on both sides, the data shows, the lion has about a 85% chance to kill a tiger in a fair fight.  http://wildanimalwarfare.yuku.com/topic/10/Tiger-kills-male-lions#.VkJWpnarTIU

The historical artifacts and paintings are not counted in that number, only shown or to confirm several wild accounts in India; as well as shed light on ancient Rome.

This does not include all the accounts of lions beating male tigers in fights.  That would be a whole separate list, which would include dozens more accounts. which is being compiled right here. http://wildanimalwarfare.yuku.com/topic/8#.ViW-QX6rTIU

A separate list of the most irrefutable lion kills tiger accounts in fair fights is right here, http://wildanimalwarfare.yuku.com/topic/33/Lion-kills-tigers-most-irrefutable-accounts#.WL3lY_krLIU

This list is made in chronological order for the very purpose that no repeats can be made of the same account.  Many tiger fans have dishonestly made list not in chronological order, with no links, adding fake death accounts and repeating them many times. 

Important to note, although accounts exist on Wikipedia of this subject, no background information or accessible links is available on Wikipedia for any of their accounts on the tiger vs lion subject. For the viewer to get a better understanding of the tiger killing lion accounts, here is a list with background info in chronological order and original links. http://wildanimalwarfare.yuku.com/topic/10/Tiger-kills-male-lions#.VxObF3rm3VJ

On these list below, most every account is accessible with the original link and sources given, background info is mentioned, this all validates the accounts as much as possible.

  



Here is a brief summary overview of the lion kills tiger accounts, in chronological order.



2011 One sub-adult lion kills a male tiger with a choke hold, the other sub-adult lion is not seen making any contact. 


{2008} Zoologist witnesses 3 male tigers killed on two occasions, working in the field, two were Siberians.

{2004} Male lion kills male tiger  in Tinjomoyo zoo, Semarang Indonesia.

1986 Trainer Marco Peters witnesses lions fighting over females, and some of the cats were killed. He stated the lions and tiges didn't get along and the lion always won except vs the weaker smaller lioness's.

1986 Trainer Alan Gold has more tigers in his act, says tigers are vulnerable in a fight, sees a tiger die to lions.

1984 Lioness kills older tiger.

1980 Trainer Dave Hoover has tigers killed that year vs lions over mating fights.

1976 Trainer Dave Hoover sees tigers repeatedly dying to lions that year, says the lions are more aggressive than tigers contrary to popular belief. And the cost of upkeep is great, as the tigers are triple the cost of lions.

1974 Hoover mentions again, he has to keep the lions from killing the tigers and himself.

1972 Lion kills aggressive male tiger named Rajah, by breaking his neck. A lioness was involved but it is doubtful she played much of a role. The tiger previously had killed a tigress.

1967 Trainer Dave Hoover states, he uses only one female cat, and says in most cases lions will kill tigers, you have to protect the tigers from the lions. So in most all cases these would be male tigers dying in his acts through the years.

1965 Old lion Tuffy 12 years old would of killed 6 year old Siberian tiger Nicholas in his prime. The lion was shot as it had a death grip on the tigers neck.

1966 Dave Hoover states, the lion is the aggressor and will often kill a tiger, key phrasing often.

1960 In North Korea, many pit fights were staged between Siberian tigers and lions, the lion almost always won, these being pit fights, would also infer the tigers were killed. As this was not a circus.

1957 Caesar the II Beattys lion, kills tiger. Said to be the most aggressive lion in the act at that time period.

1956 Indian ruler witnesses Asiatic lion defeat or kill Bengal tiger on four occasions.

1955 Beatty's lion France kills two tigers, and fights with many other cats.

1954 Lion kills two tigers in Gil Gray's circus.

1951 Clyde Beatty mentions the biggest expense hes had is tigers killed by lions.

1951 A tiger was killed by a lion at the Madras zoological gardens.

1951 Asiatic lion defeats Bengal tiger in river bed, on an Indian film film.

1949 A lion named Nero kills a named Tim at Australian zoo.

1949 500lb lion kills 750lb tiger named Roger.

1944 Caesar the lion kills two more tigers in Beatty's act, each one almost instantly.

1940 Author Roy Chapman tells an account of how a lion killed a tiger.

1937 Beatty is asked about one on one fights, hes stated seeing many, and usually one of the cats is dead before he can break it up. The cats at this point were all tiger deaths, 25 in total. Which would estimate to be about 16 males.

1936 Beatty's lion Boss Tweed kills 3 Bengals at once trapped inside a narrow circus chute, the passage way to the ring. Clyde generally refers to females saying tigress's, and males just as tigers. It is likely these were 3 male tigers.

1936 Lion kills attacking tiger taring it to pieces quickly at Agartala zoo.

1935 Lion kills tiger over night at Bostock's arena, and eats its entire body except skull.

1935  3 tigers killed in Clyde Beatty's act in one show.

1934 Lion kills mature Bengal at circus animal barn in Peru Indiana, most likely Beatty's winter quarters.

1933 3 male tigers are killed during the filming of Clyde Beatty's the Big Cage movie.

1932 3 tigers are killed in gang fight at Clyde Beatty's act.

1930 In Italy Turin, with one strike lion nearly rips off attacking male Bengal tigers hind leg, the tiger later died held to the ground exhausted by the lion.

1928 MGM trainer Frank Philips the youngest mixed lion tiger trainer ever, sees a lion kill 3 tigers at once in an act.

1925 Several tigers are killed by lions in trainer Rudolf Klunsky's act in Ital Turin.

1924 Lioness attacks and kills male Bengal tiger with neck bite.

1924 Trainer Barry Hudson witnesses lion kill tiger in a flood as animal cages are broken open

1924 Sick lion named King Edward kills aggressive Dan the Bengal tiger fighting over a live chicken.

1923 Lioness nearly kills male Bengal tiger. Most likely the keepers saved the tiger.

1923  The scientist Arago mentions a lion that killed a tiger.

1920 Lion kills at zoo.

1911 Frank Bostock tells account of lion named Rover who killed male tiger named Mentor.

1908 Trainer George Conklin witnesses lion kill large male tiger in a holding cage.

1903  Lion kills huge tiger in Florence traveling menagerie

1899 Indian Rajah stages fight, British soldiers see lion kill buffalo, and then kill a large male tiger. 


1896 Lioness kills male tiger, in traveling British menagerie, and emerges without a scratch.

1888 Bostock witnesses lion kill 3 and a half year old tiger in circus wagon.

1888 Asiatic lion kills and breaks the back of male tiger translated from Indian writings.

1861 Lion kills tiger during storm at Mr. Herbert's menagerie in France.

1855 Hunter witnesses wild Asiatic lion kill Bengal tiger in India Surat.

1851 Asiatic lion kills large male Bengal tiger along Ganges river India, reported in German paper.

1808 Lion kills tiger, horse and donkey in staged arena fight in Verona Rome.

1790 Lion kills tiger and bear in staged arena animal fight in Vienna Austria.

325 b.c. Ancient Chinese writings reveal lion killed the tiger in mountain slopes.



Now please check the tigers side out, and compare and contrast, this is how we reach a 90% chance for the lion to kill a tiger in a fight to the death.  Its about 10 or a handful of lion deaths to about 70 tiger deaths.


Tiger kills male lions, in chronological order.  
http://wildanimalwarfare.yuku.com/topic/10/Tiger-kills-male-lions#.VkJWpnarTIU



Below is the lion kills tiger accounts in chronological order in detail.


There is over 50 separate accounts shown, this compared to only around a dozen or so on the tigers side.  Many accounts report more than one tiger dying, like in Hoover's act where he mentioned many tigers repeatedly dying in 5 separate sources over a 13 year period.  Many is not 2 or 3, this could easily be a dozen or so.  The Big Cage accounts, states 3 males died, Boss Tweed and the Frank Philips accounts had 3 tigers each dying in single fights to one lion, that is 6.  Caesar the first killed two tigers instantly in an act. In the 1960s, in North Korean, many fights were staged for years, the Siberian tigers repeatedly lost to the lions.  There isn't any way a North Korean would pit a female tiger against a male lion, as they only wanted the tiger to win. As well, these were not circus fights, they were pit fights, fights to the death, so this would infer many Siberian casualties would of been likely, as to how much, is anyone's guess. A dozen or so would seem a fair estimate.

In 1956 an Indian ruler witnesses the Asiatic lion beat the tiger on four separate occasions. These were most likely staged fights, and it is known that these fights were to the death. This could be 4 male tigers killed in that account alone. The Gil Gray's circus account lion killed two tigers, Beatty's lion France killed two tigers.  In 2008 a zoologist witnesses 3 large tigers killed, two Siberians at once, yet one was young. In 1937 Beatty states hes seen many one on one fights, and usually one of the cats is dead quickly before they can break it up, he then states hes only had tigers killed, 25 at that point.   

With about 10 separate sources showing more than one male tiger dying,
   This could equal to added estimate of 45 additional male tigers killed on top of the 50 accounts. Which could potentially bring the number to even 95 total.  But to be fair, and compensate for any gang ups in the Circus accounts, possible mistakes in gender, the total can be conservatively and fairly estimated at 70.


 

{2011}

One sub-adult lion puts the choke hold ona larger young male tiger.  The 2nd sub adult lion 
 is not seen making any physical contact with the tiger. This fight happened in Everland Safari Korea.



http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/63f7f74ee31547c5ad69a623b8248ff1.jpg
(Video)- Youtube-

One of the worker’s were on break, an went down the road to a store taking the key’s to the gate an car they usually break up minor scuffles with, , when two… 1.5 year old boy cub’s chased around an harassed a adult male Bengal tiger, until he collapsed from exhaustion,
http://i.imgur.com/rUyZN.jpg
He tried desperately to protect himself,…
http://i.imgur.com/8zr8Q.jpg
but the two 1.5 year old brother’s showed no mercy, the tiger roared with horrendous moan’s in agony, after on looker’s shouted for the lion’s to stop shortly after one got a hold of his throat an took his life…
http://i.imgur.com/sApCb.jpg

This footage of this fight can bee seen, at 1hour and 1 minute in on this video.  
?t=3716






{2008}

Zoologist witnesses 3 male tigers killed on two occasions, working in the field. 



Zoologist witnesses
lion kill two male Siberian tigers at once, the fight taking place in a circular cage in Mexico city, one of the tigers was an adolescent.  On another occasion the zoologist witnessed a lion maul a tiger of similar size as they were transporting the animals between neighboring cages. 



"-My teammates and I were transporting a male African Lion into a cage neighboring a Bengal Tigers cage in Kenya. There was a small opening in between the two cages for intermingling of neighboring animals. It was supposed to be closed at the time but someone forgot to close it. The lion sprang from the transportation container through the opening and mauled the tiger of similar size. We tranquilized the lion but it was too late. Two days later, the tiger died due to fatal wounds. It was a very one sided fight where the lion spent much time chasing the tiger."





http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/e1d399199bac49608338975aa3c8412c.jpg









{2004}

Male lion kills male tiger in Tinjomoyo zoo, Semarang Indonesia.    http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2000/02/29/caught-crisis-hungry-semarang-zoo-animals-need-help.html

Jeremy Tan was an eyewitness attending this zoo, when one of the keepers told him of the incident. 

"I remember when I was 7 y.o, I visited on zoo and I tried to provoked a tiger which looks so ferocious and was roaring to me, but no the lion, it just look at me sharply and shaking it's tail, then I asked an old zookeeper, what's happened when they're on a cage together, and he said It has been happened, "kid, can you see why just a tiger in the cage,?? the male one has been killed by this lion who has hair 1 year ago, the door between their cage has broken and the lions started to enter the tigers cage..when feeding time, he said like 2 on 2 match, both female didn't fight so much, but the both male tried to kill each other,..this zoo keeper run and yelled to zoo officer to shot the pushers..but too late for the tiger one.." It's written the tiger from Bengal..

It's just a small zoo in my town, Semarang..I live in Indonesia, maybe you never hear it..LOL Yeah, the old keeper was 60 years old when I was there, now I'm 23 y.o, so it was told to me 16 years ago and I don't know how he is doing right now..It's name Tinjomoyo zoo, it was so awful zoo, the animals looks treaten so bad I guess..They were living on small cage and big cat families just side by side like in jail.. Never visit it again, because it's more like animal's jail.."   Quote: Jeremy Tan




a9845d70eac44fdc8610ecaa5b243f4b.png



Source, the comments thread on youtube video, 


Lion defeats 2 male tigers at once, with confirming accounts, part 2

















(1986)

Trainer Marco Peters
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/792e1c4902a24ab88683f76f01754d90.jpg
I used to be a lion and tiger trainer, and the animals didn't get along," he said. "But during one performance, the animals were in heat, and the lions attacked the tigers, and some of the animals were killed."


http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/0e07ab20369042b18d8b41219fbedc0c.jpghttp://articles.latimes.com/1986-08-12/entertainment/ca-18814_1_wheel

Marco Peter's years later said the tiger usually whips a lion one on one, as well he mentioned
he had only seen the tiger win two times, and it was the largest tiger against the smallest lion.
With this evidence, it is for sure, in 1986, the tigers died when attacked by the lions. 


http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/29caf978baf34e10a555c0ffb91719d9.jpg









{1985}

Lions kills tiger in Alan Gold's act.  The tigers seemed to outnumber the lions in his shows. 

%237%2BAlan%2BGold.jpg






Alan gold’s circus lion kill’s male tiger Alan Gold also had a mixed group. In 1985, a free for all erupted. He lost two lions and one tiger. The lions were killed by other lions. The tiger was killed by lions. Gold, regarding the way both cats fight, compared to Beatty. He stated lions fight in a calculated way, where as tigers, in a free for all, are nervous and vulnerable. Source=Tiger fan named Peter    http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/topic/2371/A-DAY-AT-THE-CIRCUS?page=1#.VkFov3arTIV                                                                   


In a 1986 article Gold said this,

The 29-year-old trainer said he is trying to create one of the bigger, if not the biggest, cat act in the world. Gold acknowledges the occupational hazard of working in a 48-foot-diameter wire arena with Siberian tigers that weigh up to 800 pounds and lions that weigh almost as much.

"Instinct is telling tigers they want nothing to do with lions," he said. "The cats are so afraid the lions are going to jump down on their backs."

'I Hope I Get Out Alive'






A lioness kills male tiger in zoo enclosure.



7b532a40ef704659a15346f3991c24e8_r.jpg?1



Amorous tiger dies trying TAIPING, Tues. A lonely old tiger which amorously tried to lay its paws on a lioness was killed by the female at the zoo here at the weekend. Until then the two had been friendly. And the lioness had not minded the tigers approaches a zoo keeper said. The killing happened when there were few visitors at the zoo. Apparently taking advantage of the privacy, the old tiger entered the den of the lioness. A fight followed, ending in the death of the tiger. Zoo officials could only watch helplessly.

~The Straits Times, 2 May 1984, Page 44

http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Page/straitstimes19840502-1.1.44.aspx














{1980} Dave hoover, has more tigers killed by lions in 1980, the fights were over female cats for mating in this description. 




davehoover7large.jpg


Important for the viewer to note, as were only concerned with male tigers.

Hoover explains hes lost tigers.  The reason he gives, is the male lions will fight
against the male tigers for the female tiger.  He also mentions the male lions hate each other
and will fight each other over females similar to the wild.  The tigers deaths, are responsible
for male vs male fights over females.  Again important to note, the lions have killed each other
over females, the tigers have not killed the lions in these fights.


5d2fa25248714f9fbb1063d0caea740a_r.jpg?1

http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/a...svstigers2.jpg





















{1976}

Multiple tigers dying in Hoovers act in 76. 


Dave Hoover mentions the cost of up keep is difficult in his circus act.
The reason he mentions is, lions are more aggressive contrary to what people
think, causing them to kill tigers frequently and even eat them, which is a show of dominance sometimes displayed in the wild against rival waring lion gangs.

The cost of tigers at the time was 2,500, lions ran
around 600 to 700 because there was so many of them.  This would also mean, with so
many lions being bred from lion farms, and fewer tigers, the tigers would have a closer gene
pool to the wild.  Yet they still lost in these fights.


http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/png/aae6fe246e514b98ab110d0e43e594e7.png


http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/png/7914cd023a4a445caad3f7405301e461.png
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/a...daveHoover.jpg










{1974}


Trainer Dave Hoover mentions again in Oct. of 1974 lions killing tigers.


“I’ve got to keep the lions from killing the other lions, the lions from killing the tigers, and both of them from killing me,” he laughed "I’m just a referee."Quote: Dave Hoover

As well this newspaper article, it also states Hoover used 5 tigers and 5 lions, an even amount.


The original link and source to this article can be read in the OCR text below from this link, https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/31470822/


{1974}


March 3, 1974

The Journal News from Hamilton, Ohio · Page 27

Hoover states they've had 3 fights that year in 74 in March.  That is 3 fights in one month already. He goes on to say, the lions hate each other and the tigers, the tigers only hate the lions.

"The most dangerous part of the act is when the lions and tigers are entering and leaving the cages," he said. "We have had three fights with lions and tigers this year. You keep from in front of them but you are never safe. "The lions hate each other-the lions all hate tigers. The tigers don't hate each other, but they-do hate lions," Hoover said.
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/36252894/










(1973)

Two lion cubs kill and eat young tiger. This account is similar to the 2011 account in Everland safari as mentioned above. 

The description of the tiger is young, but the description of the two lions is even younger, referring to them as cubs. 

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19730829&id=lOZVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OuEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1272,7019407&hl=en









{1972}
 
Male tiger Rajah killed by lion, with lioness.  This tiger had previously killed a female tiger, so it was an aggressive specimen.  Many zoos or sanctuaries house a lioness with a male lion for company, it is doubtful the lioness had much of a role in fight.  The breaking of the male tigers neck would take some considerable power and resolve and would of undoubtedly been carried out by the male lion. 

Montana avenue. Tiger Pelt To Go To High Bidder Zoo director Ray Arras said today that plans are being formulated to.call for bids of the pelt of Rajah, the Zoo's Bengal Tiger that was killed in a fight with two lions late yesterday. Arras said the City Clerk's office has unofficially received inquiries from 'ex-students of El Paso High School about the availability of the pelt. The school's mascot symbol is a tiger. A board of inquiry will also be set up by Zoo and Park officials to probe the tiger-lion fight yesterday at feeding time when a door was opened between the two pits holding the animals. The male and female lion attacked the tiger and the Bengal's neck was broken.



The fight among the three cats had to be broken up by the zoo's fire department
with a high- pressure nozzle hose. The lions broke the tiger's neck. The animal
was valued at $1,000. Ironically, the dead Bengal had killed a female tiger two years ago...












{1967}

Trainer Dave Hoover, in 1967, mentioned he only uses one female cat in his act.
He stated, " In most cases, lions will kill tigers, you have to protect the tigers from the lions..."
  With only one female cat in the ring since 1967,
90% of the time these would be male vs male fights, as he mentioned, the males fight
over the one female.


The description is cases, there is only one female, so these are multiple situations in which male tigers died in Hoovers act in 1967.

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/png/9ab65ed67c464f8a9d22f947792ea546.png


http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/png/e663f7a9537f49ae8f9f028b99bfb83c.png








{1965}   Old lion had to be shot, as it was about to kill a 6 year old Siberian
tiger named Nicholas in its prime.

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/2272c7476f5144b5b2ac60e0fc978964.jpg

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/104382777/









{1966}

Trainer Dave Hoover explains the tiger is easier to train then the lion.
He mentions the lion is the aggressor, and will often kill a tiger.
The key word here is often, which means tigers frequently died, as Hoover
later mentions was very expensive.


http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/3d374df1d7aa423aabfc71b111e8780d.jpg







[1960}

Lion repeatedly kills Siberians tigers in Korea.



Lion usually beat the tiger in Korean pit fights.  The fight shown where a tigress
beats a lioness was heavily edited to only show the tigress doing well, after the fight
the tigress appeared more wounded.  The video does not show male fights, because
it is believed the male lion won, and the North Koreans only created the films for propaganda.




image



Below quotes from a news article, prove the lioness vs tigress fight was edited to make the tiger look better.




"In another scene, a lioness and a tiger are trapped in what appears to be a zoo cage. The background is of iron bars and fake rocks made of poured concrete. The animals growl. Though there is no explanation of why the two are poised to fight, it is assumed the battle is between two territorial animals being forced to share a small cage. The two tear into each other, with the lioness often fighting from her back."

"From this brief scene, the narrator posits that the lioness is cowardly and the tiger is the more powerful of these alpha-predators, hinting at animistic nationalism, in the sense that "our native beast is stronger than the foreign beast". The North Korean army chose the tiger as its symbolic mascot, named Hokuk-i, the "nation-defending tiger". Similarly, the tiger is used in numerous symbols in South Korea. Yet in the past neither country has protected the cherished icon. "

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/HA28Dg01.html



The fight was edited look at the tiger at the end.



hqdefault.jpg

Lairwebs.org a tiger conservation site, hired experts to research tigers vs lions.  These experts also found in the Korean 1960s pit fights, the lion usually won. 



Lion beats Siberian tigers repeatedly in pit fights in Korea, 1960s.  This answers the question that many have, can a lion beat a Siberian tiger, and the answer is a definitive yes.  The Koreans discontent seeing their native cat lose, actually had to go to great efforts searching for a particular sub-species that could beat the lion.  Only a small sub-species from a select area of Northern Nepal Valley was said to be able to beat the lion having greater aggression and the large size of the Siberian, living in close proximity together.  This account shows, that fight experience with other cats does matter.


With this said, it is unknown what sub-species of lions the Korean's were using in these fights, their extreme bias shown clearly indicates the intent was to not stage a fair fight, but to simply find a tiger that could beat a lion.  Looking wherever they could.  Because of this intent, it is likely these were not the largest lions or the toughest they could find.  To come to a more accurate conclusion, the same exaustive search would then have to be conducted for the lions side...searching for the largest most aggressive lion sub-species in Africa.


http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/conflict5.html


image






Further information confirming this... research done at the University of California at Berkley, found that the Asiatic lion killed the Siberian tigers when they strayed into the lions territories.



Professor: John Campbell Merriam


http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/merriam.html

The Asiatic lion was known to kill the Siberian when it strayed into the lions territory.http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...0/ed-1/seq-39/













{1957}


Caesar the II Beatty's lion kills tiger. 

This is not the same Caesar that fought in Beatty's act in the 30s.

Beat19653.jpg


 "Clyde Beatty, World-Renowned Wild Animal Trainer, Has Trouble With Tiger-Killing Lion "Caesar", One Of Wild Animals in Featured Act With Circus Here Friday."

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/40948101/


This is not the same Caesar who killed Bobby the tiger in the Big Cage movie, and two other tigers in Beatty's act in the 1930s.  According to Beatty's assistant trainer Red Hartman, this lion Caesar was the most vicious cat in the act at the time during the 1960s. 


"IN STITCHES Minor clawings are  daily hazard of Hartman's job and  is seldom without a few stitches on his hands and arms. His most dangerous beast, he says, is Caesar, a huge, black-maned Nubian lion 'He nicked me a bit,' the young headliner said after Caesar got to his left arm recently. 'Nothing to get upset about--it just means I'll have to watch him a bit closer.' Hartman worked the lions and tigers last season while Beatty was hospitalized." 1965 Aug. 17

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/34723135/



In 1959 Caesar attacked again, slashing Beatty injuring his arm. 

Clyde Beatty Is Slashed by Lion ·, DETROIT (UPI) -- Famous lion j; tamer Clyde Beatty was slashed ~ by a lion Thursday night during his act at the Shrine Circus, had 11 stitches put in his right arm and then announced the show will go · on again Friday night. Caesar, an African lion, stripped Beatty's leather glove from his left hand with a swipe of his paw. Beatty's chair and pistol were sent flying across the cage. With a second lightning-like swipe, Caesar slashed downward, ripping Beatty's right arm between the elbow and wrist. Beatty called it "only a scratch."  An attendant saved Beatty by prodding The lion with a pole after the " attack. "The bites are worse," the veteran animal trainer said, "It's not the clawing that bothers me. It's having to take the series of annual shots--that's the real bother."

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/74830824/










{1956}

Indian ruler witness's lion beat tiger on four separate occasions.  He dispels the notion that the tiger drove the lion out of India, citing actual locations the lion inhabited that the tiger did not.

nawanagar-Digvi.jpg



Jam Sahib of Nawanagar India, has witnessed the Asiatic lion beat the Bengal tiger on four occasions. 

It is important to understand, Sahib witnessed these fights on four occasions, these seem to be four different
instances.  Which is even more remarkable.  This would mean, four different smaller Asiatic lions beat 4 different
Bengal tigers. 

Journal of the Bombay Natural History Society - Volume 54 - Page 172

1956 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions
In this connection it is interesting to note that the Jam Sahib of Nawanagar has informed me that he has himself witnessed a fight between a lion and a tiger on four occasions, on all of which the lion won. My own humble opinion is that I do not ...




https://www.google.com/search?q=Jam%20sahib%20of%20Nawanagar%20has%20informed%20me%20that%20he%20has%20himself%20witnessed%20a%20fight%20between%20a%20lion%20and%20a%20tiger%20on%20four%20occasions,%20on%20all%20which%20the%20lion%20won.&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=ssl

https://books.google.com/books?id=1RsJAAAAIAAJ&q=In+this+connection+it+is+interesting+to+note+that+the+Jam+Sahib+of+Nawanagar+has+informed+me+that+he+has+himself+witnessed+a+fight+between+a+lion+and+a+tiger+on+four+occasions,+on+all+of+which+the+lion+won.+My+own+humble+opinion+is+that+I+do+not+...&dq=In+this+connection+it+is+interesting+to+note+that+the+Jam+Sahib+of+Nawanagar+has+informed+me+that+he+has+himself+witnessed+a+fight+between+a+lion+and+a+tiger+on+four+occasions,+on+all+of+which+the+lion+won.+My+own+humble+opinion+is+that+I+do+not+...&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAGoVChMIydmRr_-JyQIVg2MmCh1qVQIk

Jam sahib of Nawanagar:


http://www.zoosprint.org/ZooPrintMag...7/July/3-8.pdf

























{1955}

Clyde Beatty's killer lion named France has killed two tigers and fought
with many other cats. 



cc78208f9edd4c3d8cc96d32ffa6793d_r.jpg?1

http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/37704787/












{1954}

Tiger is killed as Beatty is trying to separate two ferocious lion and tigers.


June 16, 1954

Nevada State Journal from Reno, Nevada · Page 4

"It was in one of these that Beatty got his worst mauling. He was trying to separate two ferocious fellows, and they resented the interference. Beatty barely escaped with his life. He was in a hospital bed several weeks as a result. One tiger was killed in that melee."

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/75101760/
















{1954}  Lion kills two tigers in Gil Gray's circus. 


http://www.thecircusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/G-G-C-Spec.jpg
http://www.thecircusblog.com/?paged=307


Actual lion that killed the two tigers seen in below pic.

Screenshot (53)
Source of the account in below link.
http://americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Station-Albums/KFYR-Dialites/KFYR-1954-08.pdf












(1952)

Scene in the Himalaya Mountains. at last it mustered its strength and struck the tiger so hard that it fell and soon was dead. This would appear to be an Asatic lion. 
















{1951}

Clyde Beatty mentions the biggest expense hes had is tigers killed by lions.
He mentions probably 50 tigers had been killed by lions.  About an estimated
3rd of those tigers could have been female.  So that could roughly be about 32
male tigers killed.  If we then factor in that Beatty both saw many one on one fights
to the death as well as many gang ups.  We can generously split the number down
to a fair 16 tigers killed by lions, total of 18 tigers killed counting the 1955 account
above, as it mentions French the lion killed two on his own. 

As well Beatty broke up many fights, saving countless tigers, and mentioned it was rarely seen
 that male tigers beat male lions in fights.



a1ddd08fdba14352aba687142f49912e_r.jpg?1



{1951}


In Madras Zoological gardens, a tiger was killed by a lion. 
photo liontigeraccount31.jpg
 Lioness kills siberian tiger: Happened in a zoo (September 1951. Madras Zoological Gardens).
http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1312670134
http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com...-for-fun-.html








(1951)
 
Lion kills tiger in Indian zoo Jamnagar.  This was an 18 year old male tiger, so it would be an advantage for the lion. 

Because of the age this account is excluded in the final total. 











(1951)

Asiatic lion defeats tiger in river bed on film.

Film on a crocodile hunt in Burma and a lion-tiger battle in a river bed were shown. The lion won the fight with the tiger, which is unusual as the tiger usually comes out on top when the two animals meet. This would of been an Asiatic lion winning this fight.  And the film is different than the film we see of the fight in the pit, because this description says it took place in a river bed.  Obviously a hot spot for these animals to live in India as most prey is near the water.

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/23876885/












{1949}
Guinness books/Animal facts, Lion named Nero killed Tim the tiger in
an Australian zoo, the male tiger Tim was reported to be large. 





Animal facts and feats: a Guinness record of the animal ... - Page 77

Gerald L. Wood - 1972 - ‎Snippet view
Guinness record of the animal kingdom Gerald L. Wood. animal than the lion, and has a superior fighting technique. ... The following month a large Bengal tiger named "Tim" was killed by a lion named "Nero" atPerth Zoological Gardens, ...






http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/35d0e8060d7044b68d171334cd7e9441.jpg
photo lionkillstigeratzoo.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/k...tigeratzoo.jpg
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...17?searchTerm=








This is perhaps one of the most credible documented accounts of a lion killing a male tiger, not only is it recorded by, Guinness and several other newspapers sources, but actual pictures are shown of the two cats. 

 The Daily News (Perth, Friday Jul, 1949, the actual picture of Nero the lion below, and as well the actual picture of Tim the tiger's skin after the killing. 

                 

Nero, the lion that killed
the tiger as seen below.  
                                                                                                       














{1949}


500 lb lion kills, Roger a 750 lb tiger, in Spanish trainer Prince Ki-Gor's act. 

Roger had a 250 lb weight advantage on the lion, yet could of possibly been neutered. 

SAVE0266.jpg




In fitchburg a lion kill’s Roger the Siberian tiger in circus act. 500 Pound Circus Lion Arrives In Fitchburg Today After Killing Huge Tiger. The incident, as related today by the trainer of "cats," who has been engaged in this daring business for 29 years or since he was nine years of age took place before the end of the act.The prince, who boasts of partial American parentage, his mother being a native of the United States and his father a Spaniard, said that the battle lasted but five or six minutes.”
Fitchburg Sentinel, Mass, Friday, June 3, 1949 


https://www.newspapers.com/image/45311971/?terms=Lion%2Bkills%2Bhuge%2Btiger



Another source from this same account says the tiger was 1,000lbs.  


 

e3b5b711551147ed8b0cdf4f3148430f_r.jpg?1

1000-Pound Circus Tiger Loses Fight With Lion NEW BEDFORD, Mass., June 2 (/F>—The lion is still king. When the Biller Brothers circus moved on to its next stop today it left behind the remains of a 1000- pound tiger. The tiger was killed last night in a savage battle with a lion.


Upon further investigation, it appears that the tiger may have weighed with in the rage of 750lbs to 800lbs, this is close to 1,000lbs but not quite.  Weights can fluctuate as well. This was obviously a huge tiger.  Below the trainer noted the lion weighed 500lbs, and stated the tiger was 250lbs heavier. 

He actually started teaching and breaking and training the cats when he was 16 years of TJit afl-rlctortoui Son, "Kind" to only four years old, and the late tiger was eight years of age and about 250 pounds heavier. Ki-Gor Hid that the fight created quite a stir among the other five lions, "but they handled the roles of spectators well, as lions usually do when one of their own is involved in combat, and with the exception of 'Zimba,' who moved only to come to my aid, 


To make this more confusing, the tiger was also called a female and in the same article that said his name was Roger.  The trainer mentioned it weighed 750lbs, the lion named King, weighed 500lb.  

Its important to be thorough in regarding the facts. Upon further insight and investigation in various articles, its quite apparent that a female tiger would not be named Roger, and nor could it weigh almost 800lbs.

It is more likely and feasible that a neutered male tiger would weigh this much. Which could be the confusion is thinking it was female as a neutered bigcat would have no male reproductive parts. 


Many tigers that hit these high weights are actually neutered, which causes added weight gain.
Below are some examples of neutered male tigers with similar weights to Roger. 

image


Here is Conan a 750 lb neutered male Siberian tiger. 
image



Here is Halloween, an 800 lb tiger, clearly neutered. 

image


















{1944}



Caesar the lion kills two tigers in one act.  To be fair, the author thinks that Caesar may have had the element of surprise, and a possible weight advantage.  But this is not for certain, and the instantaneous speed in which Caesar killed these two tigers shows they were clearly out matched no matter what the scenario. 

th?id=OIP.M1c0cd4db4ebc3711f7deada4d68b5

"Clyde Beatty. among other famous trainers, has recorded some of them. He tells of one huge lionnamed Caesar, who, from his position at the top of a pyramid formed in the act by the caged catstwice sprang upon tigers, killing each one almost instantly. The audience loved it, but tigers are expensive so Caesar had to be taken out of the show."

http://books.google.com/books?id=pzl...=0CDMQ6AEwAzgU




{1940}

Author Roy Chapman tells of an account of a lion killing a tiger in a circus, but like so many authors

seems to misinformed that his has happened many times as these accounts show.  
Front Cover



lion kills tiger ~Roy chapman 
http://books.google.com/books?id=...4P2igKegIHADA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA 













{1939}
Clyde beatty 25 tigers were killed by his lions 1939, on average a 3rd of
Beatty's tigers would be female, so aprox. 16 male tigers would of died by 1939.
http://books.google.com/books?id=vNs...ed=0CCYQ6AEwA    





(1937)
 
Beatty states in an interview hes also seen many one on one fights, and usually one of the cats
is dead before he can break it up. These cats would only be tigers killed, as no lions had died in his act at this time.


In the Chicago Tribune Beatty is asked about one on one fights, he then states
he does not stage many of those as its too expensive...but then says hes had plenty of such
fights happen accidentally.  And before he can stop it, one of the cats is dead.  He goes on to say since 1927, 25 tigers were killed by lions, and no lions killed by tigers.


So it is clear here although lions gang up, many tigers were also killed in one on one battles to lions.

By deductive reasoning, to be as fair as possible, let's say aprox a 3rd of the 25 tigers killed
were female, that cuts the number to about 18.  Beatty had seen many gang fights, and many
one on one fights.  So to be fair, we can split the #18 in half, to nine.  Still, in a fair fight to
the death, the tiger was killed by the lion 9 times in ten years.  The tiger never winning in any
fights to the death vs the lion one on one.  This confirms Beatty's statement, " The lion will whip
a tiger 9 times out of 10."

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1937/04/11/page/105/article/whos-the-king-of-beasts
559938440bde4e4d8b68ca93a07b52b7_r.jpg?1














{1936}
 
Beatty's lion Boss Tweed kills 3 tigers at once inside a circus chute.



http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/ca0111dff870451aacd7948297ffb602.jpg

Into the chute ran three Bengal tigers with Boss Tweed in pursuit. "For twenty minutes they battled. Boss Tweed killed the three tigers, but himself was almost torn to ribbons. He recovered but somehow he never seemed to be the same. His spirit or his fighting nerve was gone. The other morning I opened his cage door and he was dead, for seven years I trained him, the longest of any of my cats. I was greatly attached to him
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1338&dat=19360811&id=StVXAAAAIBAJ&sjid=BvUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4154,2734591








It is important for the viewer to understand what the size of a circus chute is.  Boss Tweed did not kill these 3 tigers in the ring, he killed all 3 trapped inside the chute, which is a very narrow tunnel that the cats use to make the entrance and exits into the bigcage. 





To the left of Harriet Beatty Clyde's wife, is the circus chute, the door is open, the tiger is entering the act. 
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/431196be3d584206b4398fe77e477b42.jpg614f7d62cd2f4a16a6cf5422cbdf96ef_r.jpg?1



At the end of her act, the tigers are going back into the chute, the assistant standing beside it opens and closes the door.    It is within this small entrance tunnel that the lion
Boss Tweed chose to fight the 3 tigers all on his own, for 20 minutes.  As one can see by the size of it, there is very little room to move or maneuver for 4 bigcats fighting.

                              
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/f89299d91c824143ad652895007bb1f3.jpghttp://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/77dd56c1a1c54d08b49ad20d2e4fe1b2.jpg




















{1936}


In the Charleston Gazette, Bengal tiger attacks lion, the fight does not last long, the lion literally tearing the tiger to pieces. Important to understand, this was a complete fair fight, as the tiger attacked the lion first, yet the lion won very quickly. 

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/5164c0a633a445a8b586130ded2bfd7c.jpg


https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/105402305/





(1935)

Lion kills tiger over night at Bostock's, and eats every particle of his body except skull. 



ll

8952299630_f330f978a1_z.jpg




Story of the Bostock lion that vanquished a tiger and
overnight, ate every particle of his body, except for the skull

https://www.google.com/search?q=lion+tiger+skull+eaten+bostock+&tbo=p&tbm=bks&num=10&oq=lion+tiger+skull+eaten+bostock+&gs_l=heirloom-serp.12...189239.197911.0.200926.35.6.0.27.0.0.430.801.0j1j1j0j1.3.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..33.2.648.wr7wnlduOIs




Here is an actual artist depiction who had been to the Bostock arena in 1901, it shows a lion in command guarding its kill amidst the other leopards and tigers in the enclosure. 



circus-menagerie-c1901-nlions-tigers-and



http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-circus-menagerie-c1901-nlions-tigers-and-bloodthirsty-jaguars-at-frank-95534244.html










{1935}

3 tigers are killed in one performance at the Clyde Beatty show in 1935.

http://nyshistoricnewspapers.org/lccn/sn84031165/1935-07-15/ed-1/seq-5/#date1=01%2F01%2F1725&sort=relevance&date2=12%2F31%2F2015&searchType=advanced&SearchType=prox5&sequence=0&index=2&words=Fight+Lions+Tigers&proxdistance=5&to_year=2015&rows=20&ortext=&from_year=1725&proxtext=lion+tiger+fight+&phrasetext=&andtext=&dateFilterType=range&page=2











{1934}

lion kills mature Bengal tiger Logansport Press, November 15, 1934.  

Logansport Press, November 15, 1934, Page 1
Within one of these animal barns below, at the Hagenbeck winter quarters in Peru Indiana, the lion
had killed the tiger. 





A close up of one of the barns still standing today.  


One of the barns still standing at the old Circus Winter Quarters along the Mississinewa River near Peru, Indiana.:



lionvstigeraccount2.jpg
Peru Nov.14 "The much debated question of which would win if a full grown African lion and a mature Bengal Tiger battled to death was settled at least locally this morning when a lion killed a tiger at the Circus animal barn. The battle between the king  of the jungle and the striped  member of the cat, occurred a I short time after the animals  were unloaded from the train and taken to winter quarters. The two beasts mixed in a furious battle and before trainers could separate them the lion had killed the Tiger. The event was the first battle to death between animals at the local circus quarters officials said."

http://newspaperarchive.com/us/indiana/logansport/logansport-press/1934/11-15/












{1933}




Clyde Beatty mentions a tigress who is killed in a brief encounter with a lion. He then goes on to say, since he started this present act, 6 tigers were killed in the same way.  The same way meaning brief encounters, not gang fights.  This means 6 tigers were killed very quickly just running into lions at this point.  It is obvious that some of those 6 tigers would be male, as Beatty is citing the accounts to show the lion's fighting ability vs the tiger. He would not cite only a tigress's killed as proof as to why the lion is a better fighter than the tiger.


As shown earlier, this further confirms the 1937 account, that Beatty has seen many one on one fights in which the tigers
are killed instantly at times. 


rs.com/newspage/1023397
3/





{1933}


The Bigcage fight, 6 different news sources report the tiger died after
the hose was spraying.  3 male tigers died in the making of the scene. 

Note the image on the lower right shows a lion with a death grip on a tiger. 
bigcagetop.jpg






Important for the viewer to note, when watching the Big Cage fight, many scenes and clips are replayed at different points through out the fight scene.  The lion is only pulled down by the mane two times.  Present keepers of today, have also personally attested to the fact that lions do not like being sprayed with the water hoses, where as the tigers don't mind.




At 27 minutes and 24 secs in on this video below, you can see the Beatty Bigcage fight, and proof is shown that the clip was cut at the end. The tiger was later killed after the hose was spraying.


?t=1644


The source below in the Chicago Tribune April 11, 1937 shows a picture taken from the Big Cage fight, it states 2 minutes after the photo was taken the tiger was dead.

afe76b9fba17490687ed96e388cf2b94_r.jpg?1


  3 male tigers died in total in the making of the Big Cage movie.

0bd2ed4fefe34ddd9b64e0ffef50910b.jpg



http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws....70d5e4a2_r.jpg






The 1st fight staged was a lion named Sultan vs a wild tiger named Tommy:


This first fight in the Bigcage actually gave the advantage to the tiger.  Beatty allowed the tiger to jump the lion by surprise.

The lion did not see the tiger, it was focused on attacking Beatty instead. 

The tiger chosen, was untamed, wild, it had never been in the cage with a lion nor in Beatty's act. The untamed tiger was chosen on purpose so that a good fight would ensue for the film. 



fa30e1a6dcde40bc83e061241f47b953.png





Most of the movie stars watching the first fight, bet on the tiger.  But, Beatty noted the tiger always commits itself hanging on first where ever it can grab hold.

The lion appears to not commit itself to the hold first, but only commits itself only if its able to bite a vital area. 

cf00666b8c9d4fad96b2fed83a9f2325.png


Here is the full link and article to this account. 





The 2nd Fight, was Caesar the lion, who kills Bobby the tiger. Bobby was Beatty's most intelligent tiger.

This is Caesar the lion below, he has a belly mane, not the same lion we see which
is shown in the 3rd fight.  The tiger on the right is Bobby, which Caesar killed, again this fight is not shown on film.


caesar-male-lion-a.gif      big-male-tiger-a.gif
http://www.google.com/search?q=clyde+beatty+bobby+throat+caesar+&tbm=bks&tbo=1

More proof the lion in the film we see, is not Caesar, here is another pic of Caesar below with belly mane.



image


image

Full excerpt from the 2nd Big Cage fight, Bobby vs Caesar.

http://animaluntamed.yuku.com/topic/1264/Caesar-and-Bobby?page=#.V2guyjXm01l

Important to note this is Caesar, he had a belly mane. Not the same lion we see in the film.


image





The 3rd fight, is the fight we see on film.  After the hose was spraying, the lion killed the male tiger.


In this 3rd fight, again they staged it in an unfair way as to let the tiger jump the lion from behind
by surprise.  This is how the tiger got the initial advantage and was able to pull it down in a hold.

1933-Supposedly-Tame-Lion-And-Tiger-Clyde-Beatty-Battle-In-Big-Cage-Press-Photo





Note this lion in the 3rd fight is not Caesar, as it has no belly mane.


image

The text notes, the mane protects the lions head, and moments later the lion sends the tiger
crashing against the bars with a strike.


image


Several news sources below report this, the tiger was bitten through the kidney. Which is important information as the first two tiger deaths were fatal by throat and neck bites. The kidney area is not located in the throat or neck. Which further confirms this is not the same account as the first two fights.

http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/Leofwin/media/liontigeraccount5.jpg.html?t=1312674003


http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k625/Leofwin/lionvstigeraccount3.jpg

http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/Leofwin/media/lionvstigeraccount3.jpg.html



In the anatomy diagram of the tiger, note where the kidney is located, it is situated below the center spine, a completely different area than where the first two tigers were killed which was in the neck and throat.
tigerpic.JPG






Saturday May 27, 1933, Santa Cruz News, page 3. 

167b1f927a884c40b476d4e29914443e_r.png?1

Image






More evidence the 3rd male tiger was killed after the hose was spraying.  Under the column "observations" and title "Bits about film here and coming."  The article says the studio reported the tiger was killed after the hose was spraying. Which is important, as its not just Beatty stating this, its the actual movie studio, Universal Studios.


 

Buffalo NY Courier Express 1933

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/6884a4ea962d4a6285be8808bddd64bf.jpghttp://fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%2021/Buffalo%20NY%20Courier%20Express/Buffalo%20NY%20Courier%20Express%201933/Buffalo%20NY%20Courier%20Express%201933%20-%204205.pdf



















{1932}

Travel, Volumes 60-61

Front Cover
Travel Magazine, Incorporated, 1932 - Travel



3 tigers are killed in a gang fight in Clyde Beatty's act. 



"...was between seventeen lions and twelve tigers, and resulted in the death of three of the tigers and the serious injury of several of the lions."

This account does not have to be counted in the total, as it was a gang fight, but it is shown because its also possible 3 individual lions could of fought 3 individual tigers.  With over 29 cats, some of the exchanges and battles will certainly be one on one.
https://www.google.com/#safe=active&tbm=bks&q=The+trainer...and+twelve+tigers%2C+and+resulted+in+the+death+of+three+of+the+tigers+and+the+serious+injury+of+several+of+the+lions.a+tiger+in+a+finish+fight.


As well important to note, at this time in 1932 Beatty had more lioness's, so at least 7 of the 17 lions could be female not male.  So that is 10 male lions most likely out of the 17 lions, not 17 male lions.




Many people accuse Beatty of being bias, but in this article he actually says in 1932 he'd be inclined to favor the tiger in a finish fights.  "But the question of individual supremacy is still unsettled, though I would be inclined to favor a tiger in a finish fight."


In Oct. of 1932 in a newspaper article, Beatty actually says he'd like his audience to look at his tigers not the lions. Then stating the tiger is faster with a more frenzied attack vs the trainer.

"Ad accident, two 01 three times a year. His next may come In Pampa tonight—or where no one can foretell. 'Tigers Vicious.' He likes for his audience to watch his tigers. 'Most people instinctively watch the lions which because of their roars and majestic bends, appear the more dangerous But the tigers are but slightly smaller, much faster, and diabolical In their frenzied attacks. The lion crushes; the tiger tears and rips." Quote: Clyde Beatty 1932

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/9096727/




A year later in the movie the Bigcage, the director had Beatty stage a fair one on one fight between Sultan the lion and a wild tiger named Tommy. 

Beatty stated he wasn't sure who would win because it is said the tiger is supposed to be invincible in a one on one vs any animal.  Key word supposed.



cf00666b8c9d4fad96b2fed83a9f2325.png



After Sultan beat Tommy the wild tiger in the above account as shown earlier in the Bigcage fights, Beatty stated, " From now on, I'll bet on the lion."

Because of the many cats ganging and the confusion of which is really beating the other in Beatty's early years, he wasn't completely sure which cat was precisely tougher
but after the staged fair one on one fights of the Bigcage movie, Beatty's opinion began to be influenced more solidly, and that was just the beginning, as Beatty would see later
over 30 more years of fights between the two species solidifying his conclusion the lion is the mightiest of the Bigcats.


Facing the Big Cats, Clyde Beatty, 1965

51czpTdt4FL.jpg         In the below quote from Beatty, in the 1965 book, the end of Beatty's career, all that he has seen proved to him repeatedly
                                                                            the lion was the better fighting cat.


43502353413643a798b046f3b29891bb.png











{1930} Nov, 30th Italy Turin.


With one strike, lion nearly tares off male Bengal tigers hind leg

Later it is believed this same tiger died from another newspaper source below.   




The question whether or not a lion is the superior of a tiger in battle was recently settled during the course of a circus performance at Turin.

LION BEATS TIGER IN ONE-ROUND CIRCUS FIGHT

"The question whether or not a lion is the superior of a tiger in battle was recently settled during the course of a circus performance at Turin. The scene occurred while tamer Klose was putting Four lions and four tigers through their daily dozen in the middle ring high-spirited Bengal tiger suddenly attacked the lion and the gang having sounded tamer Klose became referee pluckily standing his ground while he attempted to separate the struggling beasts...

Round 1 went to the tiger but the second, tan than gave his assailant blow had Signor Carnera been present would have made him look sick. With one stroke the lion had almost torn off one of the Bengal's hind legs meantime the other tigers and lions who were attentive ringsiders the bout began to show...

making the tamer-referees position all the more critical Firemen were summoned with earnest pleas to bring along the hose and finally the combatants were subdued by means of violent jets of water Circus vets took care of the wounded tiger and the crowd lustily cheered, the courageous tamer Klose told the local police that he was not going to part with the lion whose Intellirence was well any element of personal risk he him self might be taking."

Source Boston Globe paper archives.
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/boston/doc/758009766.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Nov%2030,%201930&author=&pub=Daily%20Boston%20Globe%20%281928-1960%29&edition=&startpage=&desc=LION%20BEATS%20TIGER%20IN%20ONE-ROUND%20CIRCUS%20FIGHT


Below is a 2nd account of a lion killing a tiger in Turin Italy reported the same year a month apart.
This account is most likely the same tiger as it takes place in the same city in Rome, and has the tiger attacking the lion first
in both accounts.




{1930} Oct. 31
 
Lion kills male tiger in Italy Turin. 




























{1928}       


Lion kills 3 tigers, at once.


Trainer Capt. Frank Phillips, says a lion can kill a tiger any time, and recalls an experience once
seeing one lion kill 3 tigers in an animal act.


Below, Trainer Frank Phillips with Leo the MGM lion,1927.            
a1502cc2b13a4bf79b168b5d690beac5_r.jpg?1
http://sturgisantiques.com/photography/rare_photo_scrapbook_capt_frank_pillips_leo_the_lion_mgma_and_downie_bros

Source:

October 11, 1928  https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/136178734/

Altoona Mirror, September 27., 1928

This is an exceptional feat, the 2nd time this has been performed.  Boss Tweed the lion also killed
3 tigers at once, alone, inside a circus chute in the 1936 account. 

photo lionvstigeraccount4.jpg
http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/...eraccount4.jpg


Trainer Frank Phillips was born into a circus family who's mother was a famous trainer named Madam Jewel or Princess Jewel. Phillip's grew up bottle feeding and playing with lions and tigers.

Frank first got his start at the age of 15 working a mixed act of lions tigers and leopards for the Walter L. Main circus. 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRFkeEixxKiKDRBb7SFvzy

Frank Phillip's is arguably the youngest mixed lion tiger trainer on record.  This is important as a trainer must mix the cats to come to a clear objective as to who would win in a fight, instead of just speculation on appearance or size. 


https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=950&dat=19290112&id=qPJPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1lQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5454,6603718&hl=en



Because of this unique experience Frank was chosen by MGM as the lead trainer for the first MGM lion leo.



4712004a40d04bfa888bd9512745d4e3_r.jpg?1da02029a042541b38a4b6fbf84e69cf0_r.jpg?1



Frank's diverse experience also included working as the lead elephant trainer for Downie Bros. circus. 



Frank Phillips and Teddy

http://www.circushistory.org/Bandwagon/bw-1963Jan.htm



Frank Philips later in his career at Jungle Land training a large tiger. 
frank-philips-dies1

http://www.thecircusblog.com/?paged=323





{1925}

Lions attacked tigers in Kludsky's act, killing several specimens. 
tumblr_m5n65hqync1r9e7vdo3_1280.jpg

Rudolf Kludsky trains this mixed group of lions and tigers in the stadium or Turin. In the same year each group of species had to be separated as the lions oftentimes attacked the tiger and even killed several specimens.









{1924}


Lioness kills male tiger with neck bite.

0c4b535143a8478996c33c662a210994_r.jpg?1

The lioness was the aggressor and attacked first, fastening her teeth with a vice like grip into the neck of the tiger.

The Singapore Free Press and Mercantile Advertiser (1884-1942), 11 August 1924, Page 6














{1923}      Lioness nearly kills bengal tiger, most likely male tiger. 

image


 "The Jungle behind Bars" by Courtney Ryley Cooper

Lion kills tiger in flood, with trainer Barry Hudson. A remarkable feat that the lion was able to do this while in the water. 
photo liontigeraccount10.jpg





http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/...raccount10.jpg
http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=ZyBTHQAACAAJ 



In the year 1913, there was a major flood in Peru Indiana where Hagenbeck and the Sells Floto circus were.  Courtney Ryley Cooper was a newspaper reporter and a press agent for Sells Floto Circus during this time. This appears to be the very flood account he wrote in his book where the lion killed the tiger. 

Later, he worked as a newspaper reporter for The Kansas City StarNew York World, the Chicago Tribune and the Denver Post. In 1914, as a result of his work at the Post, he became the press agent for the Sells-Floto Circus, which was owned by the owners of the Post

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtney_Ryley_Cooper


The year 1913 is remembered in Indiana as the year of the great March flood. Wallace suffered serious financial losses in it as did hundreds of other Hoosiers. The Mississinewa River rose so quickly and unexpectedly on the most deadly rampage of its history, that the men at winterquarters could do little. Most of the horses were fortunately on high ground across the river to the Springdale Farm. The elephants were turned loose in hopes they could save themselves but 8 of them perished. Two or three were washed down into Peru. Twenty-one lions and tigers and 8 performing horses drowned. 



In the pic below, the massive Mississinewa river can be seen right next to the Hagenbeck winter quarters and Sells Flota circus. 

Aerial photo, winter quarters






Tragedy at the Circus



Elephants and big cats were among fatalities when 1913 floodwaters swept through Peru, Indiana. By environmental historian Ron E. Withers

PeruIN1913destruction_MiamiCoMuseum.jpg

http://nationalcalamityeaster1913flood.blogspot.com/2013/02/tragedy-at-circus.html















{1924}
Sick lion kills tiger "The Jungle behind Bars" by Courtney Ryley Cooper
King Edward the lion had not felt well, and had not eaten in days. 

http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=ZyBTHQAACAAJ


 
Trainer Lucia Zora's, Sick Lion King Edward kills Dan the bengal tiger.
King edward the lion kills Dan the bengal tiger~The American magazine
SAVE0349.jpg
https://www.google.com/search?q=King+edward+the+lion+dan+the+bengal+zora+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=ssl

. For several days King Edward had been "off feed," and to tempt his appetite, Lucia Zora, his trainer, conceived the idea of feeding him a live chicken.
https://www.google.com/search?q=King+edward+the+lion+dan+the+bengal+zora+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=ssl



tigerandlionfight3.jpg

tigerandlionfight4.jpg


The full excerpt of this story reported in the link below.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/78539922?searchTerm=leopard%20tiger%20fight%20cage&searchLimits=sortby=dateDesc



The author Courtney Ryley Cooper, was the press agent for Sells Floto Circus during the time that trainer Lucia Zora worked there, further validating this account. 

Later, he worked as a newspaper reporter for The Kansas City StarNew York World, the Chicago Tribune and the Denver Post. In 1914, as a result of his work at the Post, he became the press agent for the Sells-Floto Circus, which was owned by the owners of the Post

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtney_Ryley_Cooper



ede85f2ca6adace7cefa340ab30ee2fe.jpg


Another picture of Lucia Zora with lions and tigers, in 1914, taken by the Denver Post, the paper Courtney Ryley 
Cooper worked for.  This paper also owned the Sells Floto circus.  

Sells1914Lady-495x354.jpg
http://blogs.denverpost.com/library/files/2012/09/Sells1914Lady-495x354.jpg






{1923}

Famous French Scientist Arago witnesses a lion that killed a tiger.

Arago Francois portrait.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Arago


Darwin (1) describes a struggle took place in a menagerie between a lion and a tiger, and ended with the victory of the latter 'while Arago (2) describes another where the victim was the tiger .
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=https://books.google.com/books%3Fid%3DGlQ6AQAAIAAJ%26q%3D%2522descrive%2Buna%2Blotta%2Bsvoltasi%2Bin%2Bun%2Bserraglio%2Btra%2Bun%2Bleone%2Be%2Buna%2Btigre%2Be%2Bterminata%2Bcon%2Bla%2Bvittoria%2Bdi%2Bquest%27%2Bultima,%2Bmentre%2BArago%2B(2)%2Bne%2Bdescrive%2Bun%27altra%2Bin%2Bcui%2Bla%2Bvittima%2Bfu%2Bla%2Btigre.%2522%26dq%3D%2522descrive%2Buna%2Blotta%2Bsvoltasi%2Bin%2Bun%2Bserraglio%2Btra%2Bun%2Bleone%2Be%2Buna%2Btigre%2Be%2Bterminata%2Bcon%2Bla%2Bvittoria%2Bdi%2Bquest%27%2Bultima,%2Bmentre%2BArago%2B(2)%2Bne%2Bdescrive%2Bun%27altra%2Bin%2Bcui%2Bla%2Bvittima%2Bfu%2Bla%2Btigre.%2522&prev=search

Original book source before translation in Italian.

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Darwin+%281%29+descrive+una+lotta+svoltasi+in+un+serraglio+tra+un+leone+e+una+tigre+e+terminata+con+la+vittoria+di+quest%27+ultima%2C+mentre+Arago+%282%29+ne+descrive+un%27altra+in+cui+la+vittima+fu+la+tigre.+Haqenbeck+infine+ne+descrive+una+in+cui+la+vittoria+non%22#hl=en&tbm=bks&q=%22descrive+una+lotta+svoltasi+in+un+serraglio+tra+un+leone+e+una+tigre+e+terminata+con+la+vittoria+di+quest%27+ultima%2C+mentre+Arago+(2)+ne+descrive+un%27altra+in+cui+la+vittima+fu+la+tigre.%22


Arago was also the Secretary of the Academy of natural Sciences.
As mentioned in the book Lions, Tigers

https://books.google.com/books?id=mQoAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA48&dq=Arago+lion+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiroc7gj8XPAhXGJCYKHSpyBGEQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=Arago%20lion%20tiger&f=false








{1920}

Lion kills tiger at zoo.

29792a728b994b65ad5c0a3890990048_r.jpg?1
On the opposite page, devoted to vital news, a third of a column is occupied by an account of how a tiger was killed by a lion at the Zoo











{1911}
 

Bostock tells of an account of a lion named Rover who killed a male tiger named Mentor. 


3825937086_1787645882_o.jpg


In 1911, Frank Bostock gave an account, which would soon after have been considered unguarded, of fatal fights in his menagerie between lions tigers and other wild animals some years previously. " I saw one lion seize a smaller lion by the throat with his teeth and dash its head against the bars of the runway, cracking it like an egg shell. This was child's play compared with separating a lion and tiger which generally have an instinctive hatred for each other: "The tiger lay dead in the corner of the cage with his throat half torn away"


ff21711a9cd947ea9fb0c7d39e47a8a3_r.jpg?195da7727543d419e9e072790d04fdf44_r.jpg?1


Here is the original source in Bostock's own words telling of the whole account.  











(1908)
 
Lion kills large tiger. 


O'Brien's circus elephant 9 oct 1877


Trainer George Conklin 40 years experience, witnesses lion kill big male tiger in
viscous fight inside a small holding cage, at the John O'brien's circus. 

"When morning arrived we found the two In the lion's cage,
 the tiger
dead and the lion all chewed and clawed to pieces, but still full of fight.!"



http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/png/545ff008bb804cc593ccd0d1f4a342d4.png


http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/png/e5852473544d42a09b3bfb91b9f16167.png























{1903}

lion kills huge tiger in Florence Italy, ~Dundee Evening Post, Angus Scotland, September 26, 1903.



Sept. 26 1903

Lion fights tiger 

Terrifying scene at menagerie

"An exciting incident has occurred at a traveling menagerie in Florence.
Whilst a tamer was engaged in his performance in the lions den, one of the animals managed to break through the door into the neighboring cage, which was a huge tiger.  A fierce fight ensued between the beast, the tiger finally succumbing to ghastly wounds in the neck.  The lion also was badly bitten.  In  the meantime the visitors had fled panic-stricken, and the terrified tamer had disappeared from the scene." 

                                    
                      
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/1d03cb856a1b4c98ab3454ddd6671566.jpg
The reader must subscribe to see the full text.
http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results?basicsearch=through%20the%20door%20into%20the%20neighbouring%20m%20which%20was%20a%20huge%20tiger.
photo lionvstigeraccount1.jpg




http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/...eraccount1.jpg




La Domenica Del Corriere, the top selling Italian weekly paper, also reported on the account, in Oct. 11, 1903.



Unclassified - Delcampe.it


And actual illustration of the fight below inside the Italian paper, note the lion attacking the neck of the tiger, the very area to which it died from severe wounds.


http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/97aa8fddec3d4bc4a4f7ffad5785e654.jpg
Use the google translate option to read about the weekly paper. Source below. 

http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,350162884,var,La-Domenica-del-Corriere-11-Ottobre-1903-Rivolta-Tigre-e-leone-Sovrani-dItalia,language,E.html









{1902}
. Lion kills one of largest male tigers at Bostock's, Fort Wayne, 1902





,
NEW YORK. Nov. 2. - "Tradition that the tiger is a better animal then the lion in a fight has been disproved as Sr. Nicholas Garden, where one of the biggest striped denizens of the Bengal jungles is suffering from rips and tears inflicted upon him by one of the late king of the South Africa forests. The press agent did not give this story out. Probably he would lose his job if he had, for Bostock is careful to suppress any news tending to show that his animals ever exhibit sanguinary instincts when in the arena. The two big cats in question were brought together several days ago to become familiarized with each other for purposes of a contemplated act in the show ring. The tiger walked nervously up to the lion and began rubbing his nose over the latter's haunches. A low growl was the response. But when the tiger inserted his teeth in the lion's mane, Leo uttered a roar, unmasked his ivories and crouched. The tiger retreated a few feet and then sprang high in the air, intending to come down on the lion. But Leo deftly side-stepped and when the tiger alighted he grabbed it by the head. A twisting of the teeth and a large section of the tiger's face, including one eye, was gone. The trainers and attendants now tried to separate the beasts, which for several minutes rolled over and over each other, snarling, roaring, biting and scratching. Finally they were separated. The tiger, mutilated and bleeding, cowered in a corner, while the lion was defiant in another."


http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/png/a13eea220f224f92a809d1a195b55a89.pnghttp://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/png/6a37f25fbb6847d2a92d124e6ac2e1b4.png



http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sapzCc926cIJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/29335746/+FORT+WAYNE+MORNING+JOURNAL+GAZETTE,+MONDAY,+NOVEMBER+3,+1902.+lion+tiger+site:www.newspapers.com&hl=en&strip=1&vwsrc=0
















{1899}

Indian Rajah stages fight between multiple animals in one ring.

A FIGHT OF WILD BEASTS.

Taranaki Herald, Volume XLVIII, Issue 11707, 23 December 1899, Page 4

Soldiers watch as lion kills buffalo and then kills huge male tiger, described as slain monster. This fight took place in northern India witnessed by the British troupes there.  This could be possibly an Asiatic lion killing a large Bengal tiger.

After the lion had killed the tiger, it did not want to stop fighting and went after a bear in the same ring, but because of the wounds inflicted on it from the fight with the tiger, the lion was later killed by the bear. After this the bear later died in a fight with a horse as it was also previously wounded by the lion.


http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/ac8981665de3446285a5b394bbb8a7c1.jpg

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi...H18991223.2.87


























{1896}

Lioness kills male tiger in traveling British menagerie, and emerges without a scratch.




lionessfightswithatiger.jpg

lionessdefeatstiger.jpg
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/k...withatiger.jpg
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/k...featstiger.jpg
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi...A18960323.2.25






{1896}
Western Reserve University bulletin, Volume 1 A lion the victor of a fight with a mangled tiger.
http://books.google.com/books?id=jKk...=0CFcQ6AEwCDgK











{1888}

Menageries, Circuses and Theatres Edward Henry Bostock - ‎1927
 
Lion kills 3 parts grown tiger.  The tiger was younger, giving the lion an advantage.  But the account is worth mentioning, as it was a one sided fight.  A full grown tiger would be about 5 years old.  This tiger would of been about 3 an half years old. 

bostock-move.jpg



"In 1888, I remember, we had a we had a lion named Nero in the next compartment to a three-parts-grown tiger During a journey by road Nero tore a hole in the partition. Through this he squeezed his head to seize the tiger, whom he dragged — impossible though this seemed — through the aperture into his own compartment. The noise of the scuffle attracted the attention of the driver, who stopped his wagon and called for assistance, he being unable to leave his horses, which, alarmed by the noise in the den, were disposed to bolt. Handicapped as they were by lack of tools while on the journey, it was little those who rushed on the scene could do, and within a few minutes the tiger was dead."
















{1888}

Lion kills and breaks the back of male tiger, translated from Indian writings. 
This may be an Asiatic lion. 


Sirandann, sanpek: zistwar an kreol : Baissac's 1888 ... - Page 252






{1882}




In the Geneva Courier, at Forepaugh's Menagerie, Philadelphia, lion kills tiger.
















{1861}
M. Herbert’s menagerie lion kills fine royal bengal tiger, at north Jetty Havre, France. 

The fight was believed to have happened because of the stormy winds exciting the animals.  In the painting below Monet depicts what a storm would look like in Havre France. 

the-jetty-at-le-havre-1868.jpg!Large.jpg
                            North Jetty, Havre, by Claude Monet 1868


f26adc2d7cd2405b9ce6006ee8a7f198_r.jpg?1
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/a...llstiger-1.jpg
http://books.google.com/books?id=0LB...ed=0CDsQ6AEwBA
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/arti...442?searchTerm





(1855)
 
Real account of Asiatic Lion killing Bengal tiger in the wild of India Surat.


87d8cc3228c74691bbe11cec6af008c3_r.jpg?1



Source: The book, "Perils and Pleasures of a Hunters life."

Online accessible links of the book below.

Click the link below, click full screen on the book page, and enter the page 223 for the full account online.
 http://www.readanybook.com/online/18582

Click the link below, page 208.
https://ia801302.us.archive.org/17/items/cu31924016407698/cu31924016407698.pdf


The forgottenbooks page 202,
 
https://www.forgottenbooks.com/en/readbook/PerilsandPleasuresofaHuntersLife_10044674#218






 Below is the full text to the story.


%24T2eC16FHJFoE9nh6n%216FBQ0wwD%289v%21%

JUNGLES OF INDIA THRILLING SCENE


 CHAPTER XXIII.

      Domus. Surat. The Nature of the Jungles beyond. A Boa

      Constrictor. A Tiger. A Lion. Terrible Conflict

Our destination was the province called Guzerat, which is a large peninsula northwest of Bombay. We could have proceeded thither in a short time by sea, but Mr. Barrill took the circuitous land route, in order to see the country. At the end of the first day's journey we en camped at the base of a range of mountains " the height of which I supposed was fifteen hundred feet. These mountains extend entirely through western India. In the vicinity of our encampment, they were steep and stony. On aU sides were forests of bamboo, presenting a straighter and more regular aspet, than any woodland I had ever HINDOO HABITS….

At Domus, Mr. Barrill disposed of his tusks to a Parsee merchant, for about one-half the price he could have obtained if he had conveyed them to Surat. But he was glad to ged rid of the burden. Domus -n-as a small town. The inhabitants were courteous enough, but we understood that some of them were strongly suspected of being engaged in piracy. Our servants informed us that the Parsees were very numerous in the country northward, and their enterprise was the chief source of its prosperity. At noon the second day after our arrival at Domus, we came within sight of the celebrated city of Surat. Its towers and pagodas gave it an imposing appearance… but as we approached the walls age and decay were strikingly evident. This city is situated on the Taptee, about twenty miles from the point where the mouth, or bay, empties into the gulf of Cambay. It is about six miles in circumference, and shaped like a bow, the cord being the Taptee, having near its center, a small castle garrisoned by a few sepoys and Europeans. On ofner sides, the town is surrounded by a wall, flanked with semicircular towers. Without the walls we found some good European houses, formerly occupied by the French, but now, the residence of English officers; but the houses within the town were very inferior, consisting only of timber frames filled up with bricks, their upper stories projecting over each other. The streets were narrow and irregular. Only small boats, called ketches, can ascend the river to Surat " yet the city once had a very extensive* commerce.

We remained three days in Surat. During this period, Mr. Barrill made some valuable acquaintance among the English, and purchased some small articles which he deemed necessary for our comfort. We found that nearly all the business of the city was carried on by the Parsees " the Hindoos being generally as indolent as they were superstitious…

The jungle was beautiful and luxuriant " the dark green foliage of the bamboo contrasting finely with the lighter verdure of the palm and the blossoms of numerous other trees for which I had no name. The encounter of the day before had left an impression not easily effaced, and we took care to avoid, as far as we could, consistently with our designs upon the game, the thickest jungle, where it was difficult to see beyond a few yards on each side. The Hindoos were all eye as they marched, and I thought, that each moment, one of them shuddered as if he expected the terrible tiger to spring from the bushes and dash him to the ground. We had proceeded about six or seven niiles, without meeting with any animals, deemed worthy of our rifles, and were growing more confident in our march. ^Lr. Barrill and I had fallen into conversation about the contrast between the forests of India and South Africa, when a tremendous roar, and the shrieks of the Hindoos, rang fearfully in our ears, and brought our shuddering horses to a halt. The case flashed on our eyes we turned. The Parsees stood as if paralyzed " the Hindoos shrieked and danced, and seemed senseless with fright. Hurrying away through the jungle we could occasionally catch a glimpse of the striped hack of a tiger ' and a faint shriek told us what he had dared to seize foi his meal. Humanity and our own burning thirst for distinction in this region, new to us, banished all feelings uf dread, and we started away, with ready rifles in pursuit, the rest of the party following, not knowing what else to do for safety. The tiger had disappeared beneath the thick foliage of the bushes, and the cessation of the victim's shrieks left us no clue to the ferocious animal's whereabouts.


When suddenly, within about fifty yards, sounded the tremendous voice of a lion " a sound we could never forget; and a succession of awful growls, snaps, and loud rustics among the bushes, led us to believe that the two tyrants of the forests were contending for the mastery. Anxious to gain a view of such a fearful struggle, we pressed forward^ till emerging from a clump of bushes, we beheld almost at our horse's feet, the lion and tiger rolling over and over, in a conflict which only death could interrupt. The mangled Hindoo was lying senseless upon his face, within a few yards of the ferocious combatants. We did not fire, but reserved our bullets till the conflict should destroy one of the beasts.

It was a horrible struggle. The tiger was quite as large as the lion, and much quicker in his movements. But the lion showed a decided superiority of strength, and his great mane effectually covered his head. Still his hack and sides were torn hy the tiger's claws, and for some minutes the contest was doubtful. Both possessed equal courage and determination, and no disposition was evinced to have a drawn battle. It was one of the compensations of nature. The tyrants of the woods, who had so long preyed upon the weaker animals, were now paying each other in due form. Draw near, ye ghosts of mangled cattle, stags and lesser beasts, to gloat over your revenge! Our presence seemed a matter of indifference to the combatants, so intent were they in that struggle of strength and activity. But the endurance of the lion prevailed " seizing the tiger by the throat, he turned it on its back, and with his strong claws tore open its belly, and, thus put an end to its ferocious life. Hail, king of beasts, for so thou art I This had scarcely been achieved when simultaneous balls from our rifles, stretched the lion beside the foe whom he had vanquished, and their blood mingled among the grass….

We immediately dismounted, hastened to the wounded Hindoo, while his companions busied themselves in striking their spears into the helpless tiger " and patting the head of the lion. Raising the poor fellow, we found that he was so dreadfully bitten and torn about the throat and breast, that his chance of living was but small. He could not speak. After a short time spent in reeking their cowardly vengeance on the tiger, his Hindoo companions said that they had quite enough of hunting tigers on foot, and that they would take the wounded man back to Elaw as quickly as possible. Mr. Barrill agreed with them that it was the best course they could pursue, and gave them the skin of the tiger to take with them as a kind compensation for their fright. They constructed a rude litter of branches, on which they laid their wounded companion " then skinned the tigers-cutting ofi" his head " while our Parsees were skinning the lion, and then bade us adieu. The lion was not as large as those we had killed in Africa " His skin was of a yellowish hue, the mane being some shades deeper. In other respects, there seemed to be no difference between the lions of Asia and Africa.

The tiger was a beautiful animal, the skin being striped as splendidly as that of the African zebra. The form resembled that of the common cat. The eyes were of a greenish grey color, having a ferocious glare " and the appearance of the teeth and claws was enough to send a thrill of terror through a person of timid nerves. The roar of this monster, which was the first intelligence of his presence we had received, resembled that of the lion, but was not so deep and grand. When enraged as it was during the conflict with the lion, it makes a shrill cry which pierces the ear in a most disagreeable way.


It states non-fiction:
http://www.readanybook.com/author/peregrine-herne-10860

It states it’s an autobiography:
http://www.gregorrarebooks.com/cgi-bin/gregor/19933.html?id=DHdpg6en

Here is Herne being noted as one of the first hunters of his era:
http://www.shakariconnection.com/early-african-hunter-books.html





Artist that traveled abroad, to India, Rome, and Morocco
 at the time to study and paint, depicted the same thing.









Charles Catton


220px-Charles_Catton,_by_Charles_Catton_
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Catton
Charles Catton/ Had an art school in India)
Catton was the founder of the Royal Academy in which many artist at the time traveled to
India to study the wildlife instead of Italy.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Nu0j0GFSsDcC&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105&dq=charles+catton+travel+to+India&source=bl&ots=ZKn4XT9R9I&sig=nYLrYGupY69CRWkGx2UuV8Y-Tjg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAWoVChMInqGQ0qLWxgIVhFU-Ch2xZg2T#v=onepage&q=charles%20catton%20travel%20to%20India&f=false



(Lion with a death grip on tiger~Charles Catton.) Very similar to the (1855) account mentioned
above where the tiger first attacks a native of India, and then the lion comes out to attack
and kill the tiger.
 
  1148.jpg











{1800s}

Asiatic lion kills bengal tiger in India, as tiger attacks a hunter named Sylvenus.

(18th century)
 
Tiger made a spring at Sylvenus, and just when his gun missed fire and he thought it all up with him, the lion leaped in the air caught the tiger by the neck, and killed it. he said after that he never could be induced to take the life of a lion, the kindest and gentlest of wild beast





Friedrich_Specht.jpg
Friedrich Specht (6 May 1839 Lauffen am Neckar - 12 June 1909 Stuttgart), was a German painter and natural history illustrator.

He held his first exhibition at the Stuttgart Art Academy. He provided illustrations of animals and landscapes for a large number of zoology and veterinary science publications, notably for the first edition of Brehms Tierleben (1864–69) conceived by Alfred Edmund Brehm, Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary (1890—1907), Karl Christoph Vogt's Die Säugetiere in Wort und Bild (1883–89) and Richard Lydekker's Royal Natural History (1894–96). His brothers were the wood engraver Carl Gottlob Specht and the wildlife painter

 
lion-images-02.jpg


Eugene Delacroix

French painter, Eugene Delacroix 1778, 1863


(Lion with a grip on tigers neck~Delacroix)

The settings around him also shaped his work; he traveled throughout Europe but Morocco seemed to have the greatest impact on him of all the places he visited.
http://www.artble.com/artists/eugene_delacroix


afterdelacroix.jpg

The sketches look quite rough, as if done quickly from
a real subject in motion, which is a method taught
 called gesture drawing. 


image
Several studies of this subject were explored before the finished piece.

Rough water color study.
http://everypainterpaintshimself.com/gallery_images_new/Combat_of_a_Lion_with_a_Tiger_ChrisNYFeb_2007_-_Version_2.jpg
Delicroix's finished result is seen below.



8552228073_03be1df09a_z.jpg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbell1975/8552228073/in/photostream/


Max Slevogt


He was born in Landshut, Germany, in 1868. From 1885 to 1889 he studied at the Munich Academy.


A trip to Egypt in 1914 resulted in 21 paintings as well as numerous watercolors and drawings; on the return journey he stopped off in Italy. In June he acquired the country seat Neukastel.
In his rough gestural sketch below, it again appears Slevgot like the other artist may have
witnessed this from life.

(Lion defeating tiger~Max Slevgot-German)   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Slevogt
slevogt-max-1868-1932-germany-kampf-zwis

Here is a lion study most likely drawn by from life by Rembrandt, note the rough
scribble like lines similar to the other artist sketches.  This is often what sketches
from life look like.

http://www.felinest.com/lion-art-2/

rembrandt-a-lion.jpg












Steel engraving 1844

$_57.JPG


The artist is unknown at this time, but it appears to have been made by a European artist who most likely traveled to India and saw a staged fight there. 















{1851}

Asiatic lion kills Bengal tiger along Ganges river. 

Map of the combined drainage basins of the Ganges (orange), Brahmaputra (violet), and Meghna (green)



In the “Landshuter Zeitung” an Asiatic lion kills huge Bengal tiger, witnessed by local native’s of India an German Zoologist’s.
~(German new’s article)
http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com...-rare-account-





Important to note, crocodiles are attracted to commotion along the shores of rivers, and often will capitalize on an injured animal. 


This can be seen in the video below. 







Interestingly as well, a French artist has depicted a similar scene in India 1840, with a lion defeating a tiger
and a crocodile reaching from behind biting the lion, very similar to the above written account, further confirming its viability.  Both the account and the illustration are at similar times, 1840 to 1850, the crocodile attacking shows the fights had to take place near the rivers in India. 



$_57.JPG
























{1808}
 
Lion kills tiger in staged gladiatorial style fight in Verona Rome theater. 
The same lion, then went on to kill a horse and donkey in the same fight.



In Ancient Rome, the circus was a building for the exhibition of horse and chariot races, equestrian shows, staged battles, gladiatorial combat and displays of (and fights with) trained animals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circus



Verona arena 1800s.
File:Sommer, Giorgio (1834-1914) - n. 6725. VERONA, Arena.jpg




The article was published in 1834 in Gentleman's Magazine, but the account was recorded from a diary in Jul. 4th, 1808.



(The Gentleman's Magazine)




"Mr. Bolton said that a friend of his saw, in the circus at Verona, a battle between a lion, and a tiger, a horse, and an ass. The tiger at first showed symptoms of fear, and wished to decline the battle with the lion. He fought however at last with great fury but, though he foiled the lion for a time by his alertness, soon yielded on a close contact to the other's matchless strength. The horse was dreadfully terrified from the first, and became an easy conquest. The ass, the last attacked, was all the time quite unconcerned, browzing on the ground, and when at length assailed, bit and kicked with great fury, but in the end fell. The lion chiefly used his paw, with which he struck tremendous blows."




image

https://books.google.com/books?id=y2OYNXvykVcC&pg=PA233&dq=sculpture+statue+lion+tiger+fight&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/k...featstiger.png












{1790}

Lion kills tiger and bear in Vienna in the same fight.


Sir Thomas Lawrence PRA FRS (13 April 1769 – 7 January 1830) was a leading English portrait painter and president of the Royal Academy.

Lawrence was a child prodigy. One of Lawrence's works below.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Maguerite%2C_Countess_of_Blessington.jpg
 
Sir Thomas paints William Lock below.  In Sir Thomas's letters, he mentions Lock
traveled through Europe with his tutor; while doing so, in Vienna, Lock witnessed a staged fight between a lion, tiger, and bear.  The lion killed both the tiger and bear,
but later died because of fatigue vs a horse.


                            William Lock
                         
Sir Thomas Lawrence : Portrait of William Lock


Sir Thomas Lawrence's Letter-bag

 By Sir Thomas Lawrence, Elizabeth Croft  Pages, 280,281




http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/f475ab80bd14427f97aca2af76aa58c6.jpg

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/22ccec4029be473eb0930150545b5608.jpg

Lion kills bear and tiger in one fight, source and links below.







A Belgian painter below, in the same time period and similar geographic location as Vienna, depicts a lion defeating two tigers. 

200px-Eug%C3%A8ne_Verboeckhoven_Selbstpo
Self-portrait (1854) Eugene Verboeckhoven

Belgian painter Eugene Verboeckhoven  (9 June 1798 – 19 January 1881) depicts a lion defeating two tigers.  
 He was a prolific artist and very meticulous in his preparation: hundreds of sketches and studies were produced on the spot, assembling different elements like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Joseph_Verboeckhoven.

$_57.JPG

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/EUGENE-VERBOECKHOVEN-Combat-de-Tigres-et-de-Lions-wild-AGGRESSION-biting-NEW-/310975429482



Like the above account in Vienna, Belgium is in a very similar area in Europe as Vienna. Verboeckhoven traveled to do much research in his paintings abroad.  It is highly possible he saw a staged fight in person in Europe which lead to the idea of the painting above of the lion defeating the two tigers. 

europemap.gif









{ Roman times}

For any historian to learn about past ancient cultures, the art and writings are what
archaeologist unveil.  Without newspaper reports, one must search the ancient writings
art and poetry of Rome to learn about the subject of the lion vs the tiger.


Historian and author Roland Auguet, states that the lion won in Rome vs the tiger, and gives examples of sculptures that he saw where the lion is seen killing the tiger.

Front Cover


https://books.google.com/books?id=aVhXYli82rAC&pg=PA85#v=onepage&q&f=false



The Memoirs of Cleopatra
Margaret George/American=not british
was born in Nashville, Tennessee. Her father joined the U.S. Foreign Service when she was four, and thus she lived all over the world—Taiwan, Israel, and Germany—before she was thirteen. She was exposed early to historical sites and learned that legends might have a historical basis, attending school in Jaffa, Israel, where Jonah set sail (en route to meeting the whale) and living on the Rhine in Germany across from the Drachenfels, where Siegfried of the Nibelungenlied killed the dragon.

She graduated from Tufts University with a B.A. and Stanford University with an M.A. co-majoring in biological science and English literature. She worked as a science writer for several years at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. Since then she has lived in El Salvador and Sweden, and now calls Madison, Wisconsin, home.
“They took on tigers, bulls, and wild boars. Usually the lion won. page 284” {BOOK}
9780312187453.jpg
http://books.google.com/books?id=aMDoC0qKRwcC&pg=PA284&dq=the+memoirs+of+cleopatra+usually+the+lion+won+page+284&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MyOLUM_0HsGuigKhg4DAAg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA
[Yes a novel, but still from a historian]






001_thumb.jpg

As a rabbi, he paid particular attention to how Judaism impacted, and was influenced by, the course of these developments. The result is a highly readable and well-documented book about the origins of values and virtues in Western civilization as influenced by the Greeks, Romans, Christians, Muslims and, most significantly, the Jews.
~Ken Spiro; WorldPerfect Simcha Press, Sep 1, 2002 - 400 pages
http://kenspiro.com/articles.php


Jewish remnet's preserved scripture's translated to English on a history of Rome threw the jewish eye's...
“Next, the arena was lowered to feature combat between them as lions tore apart tigers, an went up against bears, croc’s leopards against wolves. It goes without saying that the Romans had never heard of animal rights.”
~Ken Spiro; WorldPerfect
http://www.simpletoremember.com/arti...actontheworld/





Martin Seyer's dissertation Vienna University
IMG_0745a_thumb.jpg
Occupation: Historian…
A historian is a person who studies and writes about the past and is regarded as an authority on it. Historians are concerned with the continuous, methodical narrative and research of past events as relating to the human race; as well as the study of all history in time. If the individual is concerned with events preceding written history, the individual is a historian of prehistory. Although "historian" can be used to describe amateur and professional historians alike, it is reserved more recently for those who have acquired graduate degrees in the discipline. Some historians, though, are recognized by publications or training and experience. "

1.The historian must treat sources with appropriate reservations;
2.The historian must not dismiss counterevidence without scholarly consideration;
3.The historian must be even-handed in treatment of evidence and eschew "cherry-picking";
4.The historian must clearly indicate any speculation;
5.The historian must not mistranslate documents or mislead by omitting parts of documents;
6.The historian must weigh the authenticity of all accounts, not merely those that contradict a favored view; and
7.The historian must take the motives of historical actors into consideration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historian
It is generally assumed that around 80-100 AD the Asian lion had become extinct in Greece and in the rest of Europe. In Western-Asia they remained widespread for the time being. In the Holy Land lions disappeared during the Crusades. In Pakistan the Asian lion was exterminated in 1810, in Turkey in 1870. In Iraq the last lion died in 1918 and in Iran (Persia) the last Asian lion was spotted by railway workers in 1942.

"Another subspecies very closely related to the Asian lion - the Barbary lion or Panthera leo leo - became extinct in the wild in 1922 (in Morocco). This animal the Barbary lion had been the dominant animal in the blood sports of the Roman arenas."
~Martin Seyer's dissertation (synopsis), Vienna University.


Martin Seyer is a native Viennese archaeologist and historian who has been lecturing and leading groups in his city and abroad for many years. Deeply knowledgeable about all aspects of Vienna, Martin possesses a broad perspective and is able to make connections between his hometown and the wider European world.
http://www.contexttravel.com/city/vienna/tour-guides
http://www.pothos.org/content/index.php?page=lions
The Department of History is devoted to the research and teaching of history from the Middle Ages to the present in an interdisciplinary context, and welcomes a variety of conceptual, methodological and theoretical approaches to historical scholarship. Among its main areas of research are the History of the Holy Roman Empire
http://www.geschichte.hu-berlin.de/lehre-und-studium/studiengaenge/ma_arts/european_joint/unis/university-of-vienna-universitaet-wien










Research done by the lairwebs experts shows the tiger was largely
unsuccessful vs the lion in Rome.


2615a43039ee4d28ac06388fe5c39b7c_r.jpg?1

http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/conflict5.html









Artifact, sculpture made in Rome of a lion beating a tiger
fighting over a boar.


[lion+statue+cope.jpg]

Ancient poetry of a fight between a lion and tiger over a boar.

"No body doubted his courage in the ancient world and the Romans thought him a brave and noble animal…in amphitheaters he always fought with style that gave credit to the desert"…a tiger run an flees like a deer before the lion.  " The tiger-foe, who thinks the hind even now within his spring shall find the lion there."...  " Come from thy den, black, shameless wolf." " At his coming fled like a deer before the lion.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Bx1...ed=0CFQQ6AEwCA



Lion defeating tiger in combat Royal Emperyium of Rome...
Copper engraving by the well listed Italian artist Pietro Aquila (1650-1692 Rome). Pietro Aquila was an Italian painter and printmaker of the Baroque period. He was born in Palermo. He mentored his nephew, the printmaker Francesco Faraone Aquila.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietro_Aquila



2609_5_1.jpg




The amphitheater had grown so still, that the clear melody of the flute was distinctly audible over the whole vast space. As soon as the disturbance ceased, the king of the beast, apparently untroubled by the new visitor, returned to his food. But the cowardice, peculiar to nocturnal beasts in the daylight, awoke in the tiger. He beheld in the shrieking multitude friends of the flute-player, and seeing the lion eating, seized the nearest piece of meat. But with a single bound the lion sprang forward, roaring loudly, to defend his property. The tiger’s claws clutched the lion’s and a fierce struggle began. The lion aimed terrible blows at his antagonist, which the tiger avoided with marvelous skill; the tiger’s teeth seized the lion’s mane, but at the same instant the latter tore off with his claws from the upper part of the tiger’s head half the skin, from which an eat and a broad trail of blood upon the sand, the tiger returned to his cage, where he howled piteously. The grating was raised, and soon only a faint whining was audible. Either the animal was dying, or the keepers had stupefied him to be able to cure him. The lion stood fiercely over his prey, which no one now disputed.”
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/a...mp/books-2.png
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/a...ooks_003-3.png




#27A German Archeologist has disphered a Greek remnent that protained to a venatio event of a free for all fight amoungs beast an men, having a lion kill 2 tigers…
Von bubna und littitz

Von wo der larm zu ihm drang, dorthin ritt er schnell,
Auch wenn sein pferd scheute und saumte.
An dem tosenden ort rang ein lowen im duell,
Der sich im kampf gegen zwei tiger aufbaumte

Einem gegen Zwei man helfen musste,
Sprach er, griff flink zur lanze und hehr,
Eh das ungetrum von ihm wusste
Stieb er in einen der tiger den speer

das epos setzt nach den etablierten regeln ahnlich romantischer Ereignisse fort
herman eilt, nachdem er den ersten tiger erlegt hatte, dem lowen im kampf mit dem zweiten tiger zu hilfe, nur dass der lowen in der zwischenzeit den tiger totet und sich aus dankbarkeit, uber und uber mit blut bedeckt, seinem retter zu fuben legt. Bubna wascht und reinigt dessen wunden besteight darauf

By Bubna and Littitz

Where the larm reached him, there he rode quickly,
Even when his horse shied and saumte.
At one place the roaring lions wrestled in the duel,
In the fight against two term aufbaumte

Two against one had any help,
Speech he attacked, nimbly lance and sublime,
Eh the ungetrum he knew
Stieb it into a term of the spear

the epic is similar to the established rules on romantic events
herman hurries after he had killed the first term, the lions in the battle with the second term to help, except that the lions in the meantime kills the tiger and is covered from gratitude, over and over with blood, his savior sets fuben to. Bubna washes and cleans the wounds besteight out
http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=822602&t=w





{393 B.C}
Latin artifact of a lion that killed a tiger
http://prints-4-u.com/store/images/F...1431805101.jpg
Phaedrus (Greek: É>=Éø?ɬɜÉÕV), (c. 444 BC – 393 BC), an Athenian aristocrat depicted prominently in Plato's dialogues
{564 B.C}
http://books.google.com/books?id=-GA...56,105,680,511
A TIGER roaming for his prey,
Sprang on a traveller in the way;
A lion came to claim the prize
And soon the greedy tiger dies.
The man then knelt, his life to crave;
His life the lion hero gave,
And him bespoke,—" You saw the fight
And must confess my power and might,
Within these woods I reign alone,
All other beasts my sway must own."
"True," said the man, "the strength 1 saw, All kinds of beasts full well might awe,
~Aesop (pronounced /?i¢?s?p/ EE-sop, Ancient Greek: Éü?É–É÷

http://prints-4-u.com/store/images/F1431805/F1431805101.jpg

Important to understand, Aesop fables are ancient stories, possibly the oldest artifacts available
on lions vs tigers.

Aesop's Fables or the Aesopica is a collection of fables credited to Aesop, a slave and storyteller believed to have lived in ancient Greece between 620 and 560 BCE. Of diverse origins, the stories associated with Aesop's name have descended to modern times through a number of sources. They continue to be reinterpreted in different verbal registers and in popular as well as artistic media.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesop%27s_Fables






d1849304x.jpg

~Carl Borromäus Andreas Ruthart
Died in Rome L’Aqulia
Born the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, Carl Borromäus Andreas Ruthart travelled to Italy very early on. His trace can be found in Rome and Venice between 1652 and 1659. After finishing his apprenticeship, he came to work in Antwerp in order to perfect his knowledge.
After going into the Church, he continued to paint a great number of profane subjects threw life held experinces such as extensive hunting scenes or animals fighting. It was only late in life, after retiring to a convent in the Abruzzo region, that Ruthart dedicated himself to celebrating the life of hermits and saints at prayer





Ancient Persia writings held by the British king, translated by English writer, showing lion defeating tiger in the forest. Possibly a Caspian tiger was defeated.

The Anvár-i Suhailí; or, The lights of Canopus
lion kills several tigers
When the tiger was seized by the lions claw, Death
http://books.google.com/books?id=QBi...ed=0CC0Q6AEwAQ



Ancient Mayan Mexican folk tale of a lion killing a tiger.


Preferred Argument Structure: Grammar As Architecture for Function
edited by John W. Du Bois, Lorraine Edith Kumpf, William J. Ashby
wild lions kills wild tiger
http://books.google.com/books?id=dmA...ed=0CCUQ6AEwAA



Ancient Indian writings translated reveal some thought it was impossible for a
tiger to kill a lion.




http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/92b23ccef89b48e886ea02088987ab53.jpg
https://books.google.com/books?id=BJMWT0ZJYHAC&pg=PA250&dq=The+dead+tiger+killed+by+a+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAGoVChMIu53PiI7ZxgIVghg-Ch2usQnf#v=onepage&q=The%20dead%20tiger%20killed%20by%20a%20lion&f=false



Artifact, country and date unknown at this time.  A historian could
verify this, it is shown for the reason that it is certainly authentic.  As shown
above, William Lock saw a fight staged in Vienna Austria, so we know there were European
fights staged in these countries at that time in the 1700s, this possibly by the looks of it
is pre Victorian around that time.


552061048_17b6809245_m.jpg










~A Comprehensive History of India: The Mauryas & Satavahanas, 325 B.C.-300 A.D Orient Longmans, 1957 

220px-KAN_Sastri.jpg 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._A._Nilakanta_Sastri 

"References to the lion in the Padirruppattu, one to the dread of other animals in mountain slopes haunted by lions, and the other to the lion killing the tiger. 

http://www.google.com/search?q=mo...tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search 




Ancient Roman artifact shows lion standing over prostrate tiger. 








Last Edited By: starfox May 15 17 6:48 PM. Edited 263 times

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#7 [url]

Aug 18 15 4:26 AM

Not exactly fake. Sometimes in the old days, people drew paintings of the happenings in coliseums and arenas, etc, and people would draw the winning animals, well, winner. Kinda like how cave paintings.

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#8 [url]

Aug 18 15 4:27 AM

Yeah, but all the British fabrication is nothing compared with the Korean propaganda in favour of the tiger. The Chronological list above is a powerful proof of lion's superiority in the fighting department.

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#10 [url]

Aug 18 15 5:14 AM

While tigers are more agile, lions possess more stamina while tigers are more active during the first moments of a fight, wearing himself out pretty quick. The lion also has a protective mane.

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#11 [url]

Aug 18 15 5:41 AM

I believe the lion mane's give a little bit of protection, the mane can snagged claws but it's also an disadvantage for the lion.The tiger in the Big cage fight got a solid bite at the lion mane and the lion was immobilize for a few second..If the tiger use that time it will go for the throat and finish the job but sadly Beatty use an ammonia to sprayed at the tiger face/nose..

 


    

Last Edited By: KingLolCat Aug 18 15 5:43 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#15 [url]

Aug 26 15 2:42 PM

So, what to do with these historical facts? Because you think that both are equal at fighting but the tiger more agile we should then throw the chronological list to the trash?

Are you kidding kinglolcat?

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#16 [url]

Sep 17 15 11:20 AM


Nice try guys, this picture is not British but painted by an Italian in Rome in the 16,00s







Lion defeating tiger in combat Royal Emperyium of Rome...
Copper engraving by the well listed Italian artist Pietro Aquila (1650-1692 Rome). Pietro Aquila was an Italian painter and printmaker of the Baroque period. He was born in Palermo. He mentored his nephew, the printmaker Francesco Faraone Aquila.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietro_Aquila



2609_5_1.jpg





This painting as well was created by a German artist born in Italy, not British, again in the 16,00s.




d1849304x.jpg

~Carl Borromäus Andreas Ruthart
Died in Rome L’Aqulia
Born the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, Carl Borromäus Andreas Ruthart travelled to Italy very early on. His trace can be found in Rome and Venice between 1652 and 1659. After finishing his apprenticeship, he came to work in Antwerp in order to perfect his knowledge.
After going into the Church, he continued to paint a great number of profane subjects threw life held experiences such as extensive hunting scenes or animals fighting. It was only late in life, after retiring to a convent in the Abruzzo region, that Ruthart dedicated himself to celebrating the life of hermits and saints at prayer

Quote    Reply   

#17 [url]

Sep 26 15 11:26 AM

KingLolCat wrote:
I believe the lion mane's give a little bit of protection, the mane can snagged claws but it's also an disadvantage for the lion.The tiger in the Big cage fight got a solid bite at the lion mane and the lion was immobilize for a few second..If the tiger use that time it will go for the throat and finish the job but sadly Beatty use an ammonia to sprayed at the tiger face/nose..

  You need to go check the Bigcage accounts on this list.  The first male tiger was killed by Sultan, not shown on film, the tiger was a wild tiger, a male and killed by a throat grab.  The 2nd tiger had a sprinkling of ammonia used to break up a hold on the mane.  This was because the director yelled do something, because there was no action, they were just tied up, and back then film was expensive.  The tiger was not hurting the lion at all as Beatty said.  After the fight was broken up, it was then the tiger Bobby tried to take Caesar down on 4 attempts.  Each lunge and attempt, Caesar evaded, till the fourth and final lunge, Caesar capitalized and killed Bobby instantly biting the neck and throat.  On the third, fight, which is what we see, the footage is replayed over and over again many times.  The tiger was given the advantage to jump the lion from behind, which gives the first grab.  Twice they were locked up, again it didn't seem to hurt the lion, the lion freed itself in the center of the ring, but was poked from the side.  Later after the hose was spraying, the lion killed the male tiger biting it through the kindney.  3 separate sources reported this.  The 3rd male tiger died, the one we see. 


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#18 [url]

Oct 23 15 10:50 AM

The historical artifacts are also important, because before there were newspapers, art was what historians and archaeologist used to really learn about ancient cultures. Some of the paintings in India coincide directly with the accounts in India of lions beating male tigers. 

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#19 [url]

Dec 8 15 4:37 AM

After the end of Yuku, Carnivora and All Empires, this is the last fórum where we may continue with the most exciting discussion in natura history. How is that posters like Prime, Firefox and even Tigris do not post here? 








Last Edited By: starfox Dec 8 15 7:32 AM. Edited 2 times.

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#20 [url]

Dec 8 15 7:33 AM

catlion wrote:
After the end of Yuku, Carnivora and All Empires, this is the last fórum where we may continue with the most exciting discussion in natura history. How is that posters like Prime, Firefox and even Tigris do not post here? 






Its unbelievable, I was just banned on Peter's site wildfact, for the simple reason, I posted real accounts with real links in favor of the lion.   http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/b509598e25b04f7dbd0a38dedf076d7d.jpg       They first deleted all the post, and then banned me after.  Its just amazing these tiger fans, I guess the truth hurts.  Now Peter is going off on some tired old arguments claiming Beatty was bias, or the lions gang up argument, its pretty ridiculous. And he does all this by himself so that he can't get a rebutle.  http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-animal-trainers?pid=15924#pid15924

There is so much new data that has come out, that they don't even know about, but honestly I don't think they can handle it. There is a new account I just heard of from someone on youtube of a male lion that killed a male tiger in an Indonesian zoo, I just added it to the list. 


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