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#21 [url]

Dec 9 15 8:52 AM

Yeah, Starfox. You're right. But anyway I have read last Peter's posts they seem to me very moderate and interesting, especially coming from a tigerfan. But I do not lie to myself, I remember his last carreer as a mod in Yuku.  smiley: madsmiley: madsmiley: madsmiley: madsmiley: devilsmiley: madsmiley: devil

Anyway, you may always post here your last inputs. It would also be good to see Prime acting as a poster here.

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#22 [url]

Dec 9 15 1:59 PM

catlion wrote:

Yeah, Starfox. You're right. But anyway I have read last Peter's posts they seem to me very moderate and interesting, especially coming from a tigerfan. But I do not lie to myself, I remember his last carreer as a mod in Yuku.  smiley: madsmiley: madsmiley: madsmiley: madsmiley: devilsmiley: madsmiley: devil

Anyway, you may always post here your last inputs. It would also be good to see Prime acting as a poster here.




No they banned me fast, like in two days, and before that they deleted all my post.  Its pretty ridiculous, they can't handle the truth or the fact that so much more data and accounts have come out since they left AVA.  Peter is mentioning Luis Roth right now, but note Peter will not say anything about Bert Noyes, head trainer of all animals at Hagenbeck, nor will he mention that it was Peter Taylor who Beatty sat under learning how to handle the lions and tigers.  Both those guys said very clearly the lion beats the tiger.  They didn't want that info getting out, because its far to convincing and damning to the tigers side. There is just too much experience there to argue with, between Taylor and Noyes. I even have new accounts of a clown in Beattys act that said the lion would win. Peter also talks about wild cats constantly, well if he wants wild, than Beatty's act is the closest thing to that.  The first one on one fight staged in the Bigcage was against a wild tiger named Tommy.  The tiger was killed very quickly. And they let the tiger jump the lion by surprise on purpose. Now we know the 3rd tiger died as well in the Bigcage, all this stuff is new, and its all something they can't handle getting out or being known. Which is kind of stupid. Also, many of the tiger death accounts vs the lion, are not what they seem, many I'm finding out weren't even fair fights and were not against mature healthy male lions.  The Darwin account was against an old lion with no teeth.  There are now virtually no recorded cases of a tiger killing a healthy mature full maned lion in a fight without some advantage.  http://wildanimalwarfare.yuku.com/topic/10/Tiger-kills-male-lions#.VmikKrgrLIU

Last Edited By: starfox Dec 9 15 2:02 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#23 [url]

Dec 9 15 4:39 PM

Yes, it is true. But Peter's posts never say now what he meant before that the trainers he contacted all favored the tiger.
Of course, you cannot expect much more from him. His usual audience is pckts.
And where is Perrault? He does not appear in Peter's fórum, or does he?

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#24 [url]

Dec 13 15 5:34 PM

Yeah Starfox. This Peter is just a fanatical, twister who tries to convince with apparent moderate and documented words of his lies. Peter is nothing but another Perrault with a more intelligence and education. They do not want to know the truth. They just want (who knows why?) to conceal evidences in favour of the male lion. Now, your info and that from Prime has overwhelmingly unbalanced the debate. There is no more debate.

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#25 [url]

Dec 16 15 10:18 AM

He keeps saying preference, its not preference when the tiger barely has killed one healthy adult male lion through history. Its quite stunning now with the new info from Lucknow, tigers can barely beat leopards. There is just a whole lot of info that has come out that for sure they can't handle on Wildfact. 

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#26 [url]

Dec 16 15 4:27 PM

Oh, yes. These fights in India were common and the leopard was a well-balanced if not superior foe against a tiger.

Yeah Starfox, lion is at another level. Peter wants to reduce it to individuality but it is not. In fact, in one post Peter himself recognizes his subjective preference for the tiger, but this must be taken to the point in his case of denying truth to everyone and himself. In the end, another fanatical tiger fan.

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#27 [url]

Dec 17 15 9:27 AM

By deleting real accounts of the lion defeating the tiger, from top professionals like Peter Taylor and Bert Noyes, this has truly revealed to me now, not only do they have nothing to equal it, but their actually scared of it.  I responded under the leopard pic on Peter's google site, he has not replied back. https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/110520841421758443460/+Wildfact-forum/posts   Hes posting incorrect information on Beatty likening his influence to being only Louis Roth, when in fact he was trained under Peter Taylor, and over seen by head keeper Bert Noyes. Why does Peter leave out Bert Noyes and Peter Taylor, because both those guys said the lion would beat the tiger decisively. 

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#29 [url]

Jan 3 16 4:59 PM

Thanks, yeah I'll see if I can get into that site, I lost access awhile ago, but can try again.  Great to see Prime back, he's gotten a lot of historical artifacts and accounts, amazing stuff.  That recent sculpture of two tigers fighting posted by the tiger fan, that is not an artifact, its a recent sculpture, you can tell by the material.  For any poster to think the sculpture below is an artifact is quite frankly sad.  Its obvious the material used in making this is completely modern and recent, metals and modern shiny paint, plastics and such, this sculpture would of been made now, or at the oldest 1990s.



The-Intruder-Gold-Bronze-Bengal-Tiger-Sc








Now you compare that to this sculpture below, its obvious which one is old and which is new.  The one below is a real artifact no doubt about it, easily a hundred years old or older.


antigua-figura-grupo-tigre-y-leon-simil-


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#30 [url]

Jan 23 16 8:39 AM

The studies of feline's stamina is limited, but I believe Dr.Packer said in an email (i'll have to search around to find it) that he believes a lion would succumb to heat exhaustion quicker than a tiger. Furthmore, the role of a lion's mane serves more as a display of strength to avoid serious fighting with other lions. Though i guess it offers a small degree of proection, it's not enough to be a deciding factor in a fight.  
(In response to what  Bold said in an earlier post)


The tiger is the only animal the mighty brown bear avoids 

Last Edited By: StreetFighter Jan 23 16 8:42 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#32 [url]

Jan 23 16 4:21 PM

I saw nothing there that countered the previous statements in my post, but there were many accounts of lions killing tigers in fights. Many of them were valid, however, I  could just as easily copy-paste newspaper clippings, pages from books, articles, etc of tigers killing lions in circuses and zoos in return. 


The tiger is the only animal the mighty brown bear avoids 

Last Edited By: StreetFighter Jan 23 16 4:27 PM. Edited 2 times.

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#34 [url]

Jan 24 16 8:29 PM

Keith wrote:
There is only one case of a fully maned male lion being killed by a tiger. I challenge you to bring more cases, not hearsay, but fully documented accounts as those appearing in the link I gave you.

You can personally go to http://animalvsanimal.yuku.com/topic/1639/Male-Tiger-vs-Male-Lion-historical-accounts-Thread#.VqWefRgrJ7M and see for yourself multiple, VARIFIED accounts of tigers defeating lions, but i guess i'll post some here( copy-pasted from same link provided and credit to their respective posters)
http://books.google.ca/books?id=ghmN7y_9lSAC&pg=PA136&dq=a+terrific+fight+ensued+tiger&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=cFlkUcSWPNK5hAeU6oCgCQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=a%20terrific%20fight%20ensued%20tiger&f=false

image
image

http://books.google.ca/books?id=qB8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=Clyde+Beatty+had+a+15-minute+battle+between+a+lion+and+a+tiger+at+his+Jungleland+Saturday+(5).+The+roll-over+tiger+put+the+lion+out+of+action.+At+Jungleland+now&source=bl&ots=9GwaOo7G-2&sig=8_L6CIDwDjlGeRFoYWSJiVkzUYA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=U99cUYDGE8rQ2QWz4IG4Cw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Clyde%20Beatty%20had%20a%2015-minute%20battle%20between%20a%20lion%20and%20a%20tiger%20at%20his%20Jungleland%20Saturday%20(5).%20The%20roll-over%20tiger%20put%20the%20lion%20out%20of%20action.%20At%20Jungleland%20now&f=false


 *******NOTE: This was from Clyde Beatty- the lion fanboy's golden god. 

image


image

image



(of course there's more on the link)
 


The tiger is the only animal the mighty brown bear avoids 

Last Edited By: StreetFighter Jan 24 16 8:37 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#36 [url]

Jan 25 16 12:57 PM

Keith wrote:
It was an exaggerated assertion from me, I recognize. But this list cannot compare with the one in this thread. Most of your selection is taken from books of fiction.



I have the account of the roll over tiger vs the lion in 1960, that is like the only account at that time in Beatty's whole career of a tiger killing a lion, and from what he said later in 1965, the tiger only won when it had a distinct advantage, no doubt the lion killed was either a young male just being broken into the act, or an old one that was disadvantaged or caught by surprise.  In other words, it was a fluke. 

The Courtney Riley Cooper account the tiger was actually the one killed, the author was just saying in the clashes between those to particular cats at that time, the tiger was winning.  And why, because King Edward was off feed, he was sick, after the lion ate and felt better, it killed the tiger.


I researched this account below and it was actually a lioness that was killed not a male lion. 

image


Here is the same account below as the one above, and its says it was a lioness.


lionessdefeatstiger.jpg


Over all there are virtually no adult male lions in good health killed by tigers in an even match through history.  To which Beatty agreed, it takes an unsual advantage for the tiger to beat a lion or at least finally kill it, all the other accounts out there verify that he was right.  But one has to look at the backround these accounts, the age gender health, and scenario is not always mentioned in the accounts shown.

Here is all the times a tiger has killed a male lion, its almost never against a healthy adult male.
http://wildanimalwarfare.yuku.com/topic/10/Tiger-kills-male-lions#.VqaJ-VLm2sx

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#37 [url]

Jan 25 16 4:30 PM

starfox wrote:

Keith wrote:It was an exaggerated assertion from me, I recognize. But this list cannot compare with the one in this thread. Most of your selection is taken from books of fiction.



I have the account of the roll over tiger vs the lion in 1960, that is like the only account at that time in Beatty's whole career of a tiger killing a lion, and from what he said later in 1965, the tiger only won when it had a distinct advantage, no doubt the lion killed was either a young male just being broken into the act, or an old one that was disadvantaged or caught by surprise.  In other words, it was a fluke. 

The Courtney Riley Cooper account the tiger was actually the one killed, the author was just saying in the clashes between those to particular cats at that time, the tiger was winning.  And why, because King Edward was off feed, he was sick, after the lion ate and felt better, it killed the tiger.


I researched this account below and it was actually a lioness that was killed not a male lion. 

image


Here is the same account below as the one above, and its says it was a lioness.


image


Over all there are virtually no adult male lions in good health killed by tigers in an even match through history.  To which Beatty agreed, it takes an unsual advantage for the tiger to beat a lion or at least finally kill it, all the other accounts out there verify that he was right.  But one has to look at the backround these accounts, the age gender health, and scenario is not always mentioned in the accounts shown.

Here is all the times a tiger has killed a male lion, its almost never against a healthy adult male.
http://wildanimalwarfare.yuku.com/topic/10/Tiger-kills-male-lions#.VqaJ-VLm2sx

1) Clyde Beatty said that on multiple ocassions he has had male tigers defeating male lions, but he has said his tigers were larger. However, Clyde has recalled times where tigers have defended off groups of lions alone (copy-pasted again from same link and credit to their respective posters):

image

image

Furthermore, here's an account of Clyde declining Mabel Stark's ( famous animal trainer and worked with both cats) bet of $1,000: 

image



And show where you came to the conclusion that it was actually the tiger killed instead of the lion (King Edwrd account). Furthermore, visit this link: http://animalvsanimal.yuku.com/topic/1639/Male-Tiger-vs-Male-Lion-historical-accounts-Thread?page=2#.Vqa96BgrJ7M
 


The tiger is the only animal the mighty brown bear avoids 

Last Edited By: StreetFighter Jan 25 16 4:33 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#38 [url]

Jan 27 16 5:37 PM

Beatty has said sometimes a tiger will hold off 3 or 4 lions, he doesn't say the tiger will whip or kill one lion in a one on one match up or an even match up.  When lions gang up, they aren't all giving 100%, meanwhile the one athletic tiger is giving 120%.  By holding off, it just means the tiger survives until Beatty breaks up the fight. 


King Eward a sick lion yes after eating the chicken, got rejuvenated and killed Dan the Bengal.

{1924}
Sick lion kills tiger "The Jungle behind Bars" by Courtney Ryley Cooper
King Edward the lion had not felt well, and had not eaten in days. 

http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=ZyBTHQAACAAJ


 
Trainer Lucia Zora's, Sick Lion King Edward kills Dan the bengal tiger.
King edward the lion kills Dan the bengal tiger~The American magazine
SAVE0349.jpg
https://www.google.com/search?q=King+edward+the+lion+dan+the+bengal+zora+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=ssl

. For several days King Edward had been "off feed," and to tempt his appetite, Lucia Zora, his trainer, conceived the idea of feeding him a live chicken.
https://www.google.com/search?q=King+edward+the+lion+dan+the+bengal+zora+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=ssl


tigerandlionfight3.jpgtigerandlionfight4.jpg

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#39 [url]

Feb 4 16 9:29 AM

starfox wrote:
Thanks, yeah I'll see if I can get into that site, I lost access awhile ago, but can try again.  Great to see Prime back, he's gotten a lot of historical artifacts and accounts, amazing stuff.  That recent sculpture of two tigers fighting posted by the tiger fan, that is not an artifact, its a recent sculpture, you can tell by the material.  For any poster to think the sculpture below is an artifact is quite frankly sad.  Its obvious the material used in making this is completely modern and recent, metals and modern shiny paint, plastics and such, this sculpture would of been made now, or at the oldest 1990s.



image







Now you compare that to this sculpture below, its obvious which one is old and which is new.  The one below is a real artifact no doubt about it, easily a hundred years old or older.




image

I couldn't agree with you more Starfox. How sad is this recently manufactured tigers fighting sculpture ? We know lions are famous for their fighting and I find that tiger sculpture quire hilarious.
I conducted research to verify whether tigers actually fight and found this :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2517494/Tigers-slash-claws-dramatic-fight-territory.html

Some actual camera pictures taken by a photographer on the day.....

image
image




Honestly I was under the impression tigers fight for nothing but after reading this credible article I have to say tigers fight to the death for territory and over females as well. It turns out this is just one of many fights male tigers do. Its in their DNA as well looks like it.  A programme called Wildlife Specials Tiger presented and narrated by Sir David Attenborough shows a dead male tiger that was killed by another male. Ill have to dig up the info.

Did come across this , and it looks like a staged fight between lion and tiger in the olden days. 

image

image


  

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#40 [url]

Feb 4 16 9:56 AM

Any info on bite force . This seems to be a topic of dispute. What I 've gathered is that both Siberians and Bengals have a higher bite force than the lion. But apparently the lion's canines and teeth are sharper to compensate for this. 

The 2 jpegs below are from this websitehttp://www.thomsonsafaris.com/blog/animal-bite-force/

image




image

Damm turns out the hyena has a more powerful bite than both lions and tigers. Though the lion does beat him in the african wild. 
Interesting to note that the tiger's bite isn't that far away from the hyena's. 

Off the topic a bit but I feel is worthwhile to be mentioned is the Jaguar. This big cat has the most powerful bite of any big cat.

http://www.babble.com/pets/12-of-the-strongest-bites-animals-you-may-want-to-avoid/

image

http://www.discoverwildlife.com/animals/mammals/which-big-cat-has-strongest-bite







 

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