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West of India (Bengal tiger country), did the Asiatic lion meet the Caspian tiger?

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#21 [url]

Mar 20 17 7:44 AM



Yeah that's something that it was just recently reported in Wiki, I really hadn't heard that.  I thought is was hopeful as well, I ran into this article showing that they are trying to introduce the Caspian tiger back into the wild on the river Delta in Kazakhastan, http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2015/02/21/is-extinct-forever-central-asias-caspian-tiger-traverses-the-comeback-trail/

I hope this is true, because I thought I ran into some conflicting reports whether they're able to continue with this. I think they could do it if they really wanted to. They could probably also transport some Asiatic lions into parts of northern Africa as well. I think it would be interesting to ask the people who claim they saw the tigers recently, to get them to specify what color the cat was, could they make out an orange color or maybe some stripes, because the leopards should be a lot paler and lighter in the colder whether at higher altitudes I think. It would be pretty hard to miss a large orange cat.

When you say Asiatic lion, I know that counts for the general species of that area, but wouldn't you say though that lions in Iran and Turkey which had been there for so many years would at least be a separate sub-species than the Asiatic lion in India?  It would be interesting to research this some more now, I would think there would be some information of the Caspian and lion living together, and possible conflicts maybe recorded in ancient writings.

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#22 [url]

Mar 20 17 9:10 PM

I don't see any genetic proof of the Asiatic lion being divided into different subspecies, genetically speaking, just as Amur and Caspian tigers were shown to be closely related, it would appear that the Barbary lion of Northern Africa is closely related to the Senegal lion (also called the "West African lion") (Panthera leo senegalensis) of Western and Central African lion, and together, they are more closely related to the Asiatic lion than to lions from Eastern and Southern Africa, to the extent that Senegal and Barbary lions were provisionally put together by the IUCN as "Panthera leo leo" (the scientific name for the Barbary lion). Apart from that, the Senegal lion is even physically similar to the Asiatic lion:

1) Senegal lions in Senegal and Gabon (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-25722058, http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/02/africa/gabon-africa-first-lion/):
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​2) Asiatic lion (Panthera leo persica, closely related to P. l. leo in Africa) in India (http://www.ourendangeredworld.com/species/land-mammals/asian-lion/): 
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3) Ethiopian lion (P. l. roosevelti), which was shown to be genetically different to other lions (http://www.newvision.co.ug/new_vision/news/1416094/scientists-celebrate-lions-rediscovered-ethiopian-park):
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​4) Eastern African lions (P. l. azandica and P. l. massaica, or altogether, P. l. melanochaita, if they're grouped together) in Virunga and Masai Mara (http://www.rockjumperwildlife.com/wildlife-tours/customized-private-photo-tours/rwanda-kenya-mountain-gorillas-great-migration, https://www.flickr.com/photos/timrandall44/6272363558):
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5) Southern African lions (P. l. bleyenberghi and P. l. krugeri, or altogether, P. l. melanochaitus, if they're also grouped together) in Etosha and Kruger (http://www.wildlifeadventures.com/namibia/epic-namibia.html, https://www.flickr.com/photos/berniedup/16757912564/):
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Last Edited By: Ligerrules Apr 13 17 6:43 AM. Edited 9 times.

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#23 [url]

Mar 22 17 11:16 AM




So have you gotten this research from Wiki or is this a lot of your own findings, I noticed a lot of Wiki had similar information, did you contribute to Wiki's info on this topic?

I think is definitely for sure now with this updated info that both cats crossed paths in both India and the Middle east.  I actually had always suspected that was the case, I knew the Caspian was in Iran and many places there, but it seems clearer now.  When people say these cats are never share the same habitat its obviously not correct.

Do you have any info on conflicts between the Caspian and Asian lion.  I'd have to go through some of the research done on this, but right now off hand I can think of one instance in which an old professor cites conflicts of the Siberian and Asiatic lion.



Further information confirming this... research done at the University of California at Berkley, found that the Asiatic lion killed the Siberian tigers when they strayed into the lions territories.  The author is talking in the context of prehistoric fights at first, then he states the Siberian tiger wandering out of its territory into the Asiatic lion's.  Its difficult to determine what is the location of territory the tigers are meeting the lion.  I suppose its possible they could be northern Caspians like Siberians, or the Asiatic lions he's referring to could be Persian or near the Georgian area.





Professor: John Campbell Merriam


http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/merriam.html

The Asiatic lion was known to kill the Siberian when it strayed into the lions territory.http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...0/ed-1/seq-39/

Last Edited By: starfox Mar 22 17 11:24 AM. Edited 2 times.

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#24 [url]

Apr 13 17 8:43 AM

Yes, and I have been researching here and there, but I have not found direct evidence of conflict between the Asiatic lion and Caspian tiger, maybe old literature from Iran, the Middle East or Asia holds the key to that, especially those images from the Arabic or Persian book that I recently added to the first page. According to Khalaf-von Jaffa (http://web.archive.org/web/20071112132359/www.geocities.com/jaffacity/Asiatic_Lion.html), an Arab guy called 'Al-Jahez', who lived in the 8th and 9th centuries, wrote about animals in a book called "Kitab Al-Haywan", including Asiatic lions in Iraq and India, and that lions were friends with tigers, but I guess that we'll need to check what the original Arabic text (https://archive.org/details/hadhakitabalhaya567jahi) says about them.

This image of lions (http://rasekhoon.net/article/show/212816/بيشه-هاي-بي-شير/) came up when I searched for Kitab Al-Haywan:
image

Last Edited By: Ligerrules Apr 13 17 10:07 AM. Edited 7 times.

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#25 [url]

Apr 18 17 11:18 AM



Well that's some great info either way, let me know if you find anything, I'll try to do some research to.  I'm sure like any animals sharing similar prey source there would be conflicts, I think people are of this mindset that somehow lions and tigers are just too different and can't have a conflict, they're both animals both will fight for their territory and food source like any other animal.  I do think though tigers would be less reluctant though to take on the lions, or even a lion, where as the lions would be looking for the fight as they patrol their territories much more and confront invaders all the time.  Tigers do not really patrol their territories and they often don't engage an invading tiger, at least that's what a lot of research showed Ive seen.  Again, though tigers like all cats are extremely fast twitch so they are totally capable of handling themselves.

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#26 [url]

A user in this page (http://animalvsanimal.yuku.com/reply/13058/Roman-times-Lion-vs-tiger-Real-describtion-went#.WPckaWi6zIV), when talking about the Caucasian country of Armenia, referenced this book (https://books.google.ae/books?id=j8hZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA563&lpg=PA563&dq=lion+fights+combat+tiger++dead+abu&source=bl&ots=Fdgs65WC2_&sig=H7vWueW753wdCAb9rkRSImuqoKs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MnQGUJaIHKGQ2QWN7PW_BQ&redir_esc=y) to say that the lion mangled, in its lair, the tiger of the east, but can you properly access the book's contents? ​

Old images provided by Mehr News Agency (http://www.mehrnews.com/news/2241285/اعتراض-به-مستند-بی-بی-سی-نگذاریم-کشورهای-دیگر-شیر-ایرانی-را
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Last Edited By: Ligerrules . Edited 2 times.

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#27 [url]



I just clicked on the link it goes to the google books its accessible, it appears to be a poem referencing the lion mangling the tiger. 


Here is possibly something,

Ancient Persia writings held by the British king, translated by English writer, showing lion defeating tiger in the forest. Possibly a Caspian tiger.

The Anvár-i Suhailí; or, The lights of Canopus
lion kills several tigers
When the tiger was seized by the lions claw, Death, it talks about the tumult blood spilling lion overcoming the other beast and pushing the tiger out of the territory.
http://books.google.com/books?id=QBi...ed=0CC0Q6AEwAQ


Some of the most legit accounts Ive found are actually ancient India writings saying the lion killed the tiger, not a symbolic reference either.  And some research I did on Barbary lions hunters said they haunted mountain slopes, and at night came down to the farmers to raid the livestock. 


~A Comprehensive History of India: The Mauryas & Satavahanas, 325 B.C.-300 A.D Orient Longmans, 1957 

220px-KAN_Sastri.jpg 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._A._Nilakanta_Sastri 

"References to the lion in the Padirruppattu, one to the dread of other animals in mountain slopes haunted by lions, and the other to the lion killing the tiger. 

http://www.google.com/search?q=mo...tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search 

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#28 [url]

That passage in Anvár-i Suhailí is a story about the environment around Basrah, which is in Iraq, so that would be talking about the Asiatic lion and Caspian tiger, but from what I see in Wikipedia, it's a story inspired by the book that has the 2 images I posted earlier from Mehr News Agency, that is Kelileh o Dimneh, which is derived from the Indian Panchatantra. As for what you mentioned about Indian accounts of lions killing (Bengal) tigers, well, we also have the Mahabharata (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07065.htm), which says that one guy told another that tigers were fiercer and more ruthless than lions, so one should be careful about what different guys said, because, if we can have pro-lion and pro-tiger literature today, from different guys, then imagine what it would have been like in the past. For instance, here's a story about the Caspian tiger (which is called Babr-e Mazandaran (ببر مازندران) in Persian) terrorising that village, and it doesn't mention the lion, even though the latter (called 'Shir' (شير) in Persian) was also prominent in Persian culture:

 ​(http://www.masoudpaint.blogfa.com/cat-6.aspx, http://www.masoudpaint.blogfa.com/post-2.aspx
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Last Edited By: Ligerrules . Edited 2 times.

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#29 [url]



In referring to the Mahabharatag story, that is not talking about a sole tiger killing a lion in the forest or mountain slopes.  Its discussing the differences in opinion of a human being able to capture and subdue the cats comparably.  I would think that it would be true that the tiger would be harder to subdue and capture, and would also be more high strung and hyper aggressive in those situation demonstrating greater agility and speed being difficult to contain compared to a lion.  Those Indian writings are ancient, and they aren't symbolic, it has to mean something.  I think the tiger is more exciteable as all cats are, the lion is more bold and aggressive in a fighting sense yet calmer.  There are other clear ancient writings as well from Chinese Emperors who got lions as gifts, housed them with tigers and leopards and were astonished the lion could subdue as they called it the most feared of beast the man eating tiger.  This was translated by historians, the emperors really said this, the lion made the tiger submit when housed together.  So many modern day trainers have seen the same exact thing.   They'll be legends of the tiger for sure, terrorizing villages, feats of strength and agility, this stuff is happening today, but I have not seen many instances historically of tigers beating lions in fights, it seems to be the other way around.  But prove me wrong if you want.

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#30 [url]

I have seen records of tigers beating lions in captivity, but anyways, we're talking about wild fights or meetings between Asiatic lions and Caspian tigers here. I searched using the Persian words for 'Lion' and 'Tiger', that is 'Shir' (شير) and 'Babr' (ببر), respectively, such as in (http://banifilm.ir/بازسازي-ببر-منقرض-شده‌-مازندران-در-يك/) and (http://www.caspian-tiger.blogfa.com), and I don't see information on fights between Asiatic lions and Caspian tigers, but other information, like in this article (http://rasekhoon.net/article/show/212816/بيشه-هاي-بي-شير/), which has plenty of images and information relating to the 'Shir' ... 
image
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 And a little on the 'Babr'. Though they put 'Shir' (شير) in this image's caption, rather than "Babr-i Mazandaran" (ببر مازندران), 'Shir' can also mean 'Tiger'.
image
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Last Edited By: Ligerrules . Edited 4 times.

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#31 [url]



Ive seen some accounts as well of tigers beating lions or killing them, but generally its not an adult full maned lion killed, most are lioness's young males, aged lions, or something else aided the tiger in the win.  You have to put the accounts in chronological order to avoid repeats and put in the full background info, many people backing the tiger leave out the full background info, and they do this because they don't want the specifics of the fight or the age or sex or health of the lion to be seen. If you have any accounts I'm missing just let me know, I'll add in them in the tiger kills lions list.

Ive seen some decent information historically in quite a few cultures China has some compelling info.  But it can be sometimes difficult just turning up info in word searches initially or in the other language using the google translate even, but sometimes its that odd book or some other account leads to something else and you've found some interesting stuff.

It is interesting some of the pics you're posting as its showing the people of Persia were quite familiar with the lions, they were definitely prevalent there and apart of their lives to say the least, there is quite a few references to lions in the bible also which is Israel and the surrounding countries, it seems in large numbers they were all over the middle east.  I'm sure the Caspian tigers were also in high numbers all these animals were just thriving more before the gun. I just wonder about the anatomy of the Persian lion or Barbary, I wonder did they differ in design compared to the African, because the African lion's terrain is possibly different, but it seems lions whatever species would rather inhabit more open places not the thick dense jungles that the tigers inhabit and are designed for.

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