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#125 [url]

Jun 6 16 8:04 AM

There's still new stuff coming out, the debate isn't over yet, check the Tigers killed by other animals thread, this is pretty revealing when you see the kind of animals that have killed full grown male tigers, yet have not killed full grown male lions.

This was just recently discovered, Caesar the II in 1957 killed a tiger. 


Caesar the II Beatty's lion kills tiger.


 "Clyde Beatty, World-Renowned Wild Animal Trainer, Has Trouble With Tiger-Killing Lion "Caesar", One Of Wild Animals in Featured Act With Circus Here Friday."

This is not the same Caesar who killed Bobby the tiger in the Big Cage movie, and two other tigers in Beatty's act in the 1930s.  According to Beatty's assistant trainer Red Hartman, this lion Caesar was the most vicious cat in the act at the time during the 1960s. 

"IN STITCHES Minor clawings are  daily hazard of Hartman's job and  is seldom without a few stitches on his hands and arms. His most dangerous beast, he says, is Caesar, a huge, black-maned Nubian lion 'He nicked me a bit,' the young headliner said after Caesar got to his left arm recently. 'Nothing to get upset about--it just means I'll have to watch him a bit closer.' Hartman worked the lions and tigers last season while Beatty was hospitalized." 1965 Aug. 17

In 1959 Caesar attacked again, slashing Beatty injuring his arm. 

Clyde Beatty Is Slashed by Lion ·, DETROIT (UPI) -- Famous lion j; tamer Clyde Beatty was slashed ~ by a lion Thursday night during his act at the Shrine Circus, had 11 stitches put in his right arm and then announced the show will go · on again Friday night. Caesar, an African lion, stripped Beatty's leather glove from his left hand with a swipe of his paw. Beatty's chair and pistol were sent flying across the cage. With a second lightning-like swipe, Caesar slashed downward, ripping Beatty's right arm between the elbow and wrist. Beatty called it "only a scratch."  An attendant saved Beatty by prodding The lion with a pole after the " attack. "The bites are worse," the veteran animal trainer said, "It's not the clawing that bothers me. It's having to take the series of annual shots--that's the real bother."

New account from Terrell Jacobs.

He thereupon presented Mr. Terrell Jacobs, the gent who mixes lions and tigers in the same act and somehow manages to keep them from clawing each other to
pieces. "The lion is the king of beasts," said Mr. Jacobs as soon as the subject was mentioned, "and that is not just a nice line that was thought up by the Chamber of Commerce. He really is the boss. "I'll concede that a full grown tiger can defeat a lioness or even a young lion. But put a full grown lion against a full grown tiger, and you are likely to have only the lion left when the fur stops flying. "And that is not hard to understand. All cat animals fight by biting at the throat, and clawing at the underparts of the body.

The male lion has a thick mane, which protects his throat, so he needn't worry about that. All he has to do is work on the tiger, which is not protected by a mane. And he usually does. I think the king of beasts would win a fight between the lion and the tiger, but mind you, I am not taking sides. Tigers are able animals, too." "But what about a lion and a grizzly bear?" Mr. Jacobs was asked. He confessed he didn't know. He had never heard of such a meeting. But he believed that if one ever took place, the lion would win. "In addition to his teeth," said Mr. Jacobs, "the lion has 18 claws which are dangerous weapons. On each front paw he has a thumb, two scissors and two rippers. On each back paw he has four ripping claws. For protection he has his mane and his own strength. "A grizzly bear slaps, and then grabs hold of his opponent, and squeezes him, I believe," he expanded. "While he was squeezing the lion, the lion would be biting him in the throat, and ripping him in the body with his claws. I think the lion would win such a battle."

Here's a some new artifacts found as well. 

A Belgian painter below, in the same time period and similar geographic location as Vienna, depicts a lion defeating two tigers. 

Self-portrait (1854) Eugene Verboeckhoven

Belgian painter Eugene Verboeckhoven  (9 June 1798 – 19 January 1881) depicts a lion defeating two tigers.  
 He was a prolific artist and very meticulous in his preparation: hundreds of sketches and studies were produced on the spot, assembling different elements like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.


Steel engraving 1844


The artist is unknown at this time, but it appears to have been made by a European artist who most likely traveled to India and saw a staged fight there.

Interestingly as well, a French artist has depicted a similar scene in India 1840, with a lion defeating a tiger and a crocodile reaching from behind biting the lion, very similar to the wild 1850 account where the lion killed the tiger in India and a crocodile came from behind pulling it into the river, further confirming its viability. 

Translated into English by the German user Leofwin.

Both the account and the illustration are at similar times, 1840 to 1850, the crocodile attacking shows the fights had to take place near the rivers in India. 


Also some updated information in the Tiger kills male lions thread on the Edmond's menagerie account, and on the Sabre account.

Some new quotes discovered also show that Beatty was not bias for the lion, and even wanted his audience to watch the tigers in his act more. He notes their more frenzied and faster in their attacks, these would be attacks against the trainer.

"Add accident, two or three times a year. His next may come In Pampa tonight—or where no one can foretell. 'Tigers Vicious.' He likes for his audience to watch his tigers. 'Most people instinctively watch the lions which because of their roars and majestic bends, appear the more dangerous.  But the tigers are but slightly smaller, much faster, and diabolical In their frenzied attacks. The lion crushes; the tiger tears and rips." Quote: Clyde Beatty 1932

Sounds like Beatty was a tiger fan early in his career, being amazed by their athleticism and speed, appearing more diabolical, but after years of watching the lion whip the tiger repeatedly, he couldn't help but have definite opinion of who is tougher.

At this same time in 1932, he didn't know who would win in the Big Cage fight, Beatty stated he wasn't sure who would win because
it is said the tiger is supposed to be invincible in a one on one vs any animal.  Again note the quote, " it is said", not proven.

Even back in the early 30s people were exaggerating the tigers fighting abilities, yet not basing them on actual fact and real accounts.

Here is the full link and article to this account. 

All 3 tigers died in the Big Cage fights, yet even then there was tiger hype that it appears Beatty was buying into.

Its clear the tiger is not invincible to say the least even in one on one vs the lion or other animals.        It actually fairs far worse vs many other animals compared to the lion.  Including small animals like boars, female bears, leopards, dogs, rams.

Last Edited By: starfox Jun 6 16 8:40 AM. Edited 3 times.

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#126 [url]

Feb 23 17 12:00 PM

Ok so here is over 10 accounts of single lions killing adult male tigers in fair fights, with accessible links, for the youtube thread. There's about 21 individual accounts, there is obviously more than this, but these are the most credible accounts that aren't really disputable as far as whether the fight was fair, or whether the tiger was male or strong enough. {2004} Male lion kills male tiger in Tinjomoyo zoo, Semarang Indonesia. Jeremy Tan was an eyewitness attending this zoo, when one of the keepers told him of the incident.  "I remember when I was 7 y.o, I visited on zoo and I tried to provoked a tiger which looks so ferocious and was roaring to me, but no the lion, it just look at me sharply and shaking it's tail, then I asked an old zookeeper, what's happened when they're on a cage together, and he said It has been happened, "kid, can you see why just a tiger in the cage,?? the male one has been killed by this lion who has hair 1 year ago, the door between their cage has broken and the lions started to enter the tigers cage..when feeding time, he said like 2 on 2 match, both female didn't fight so much, but the both male tried to kill each other,..this zoo keeper run and yelled to zoo officer to shot the pushers..but too late for the tiger one.." It's written the tiger from Bengal.. It's just a small zoo in my town, Semarang..I live in Indonesia, maybe you never hear it..LOL Yeah, the old keeper was 60 years old when I was there, now I'm 23 y.o, so it was told to me 16 years ago and I don't know how he is doing right now..It's name Tinjomoyo zoo, it was so awful zoo, the animals looks treaten so bad I guess..They were living on small cage and big cat families just side by side like in jail.. Never visit it again, because it's more like animal's jail.."   Quote: Jeremy Tan Source, the comments thread on youtube video,  Lion defeats 2 male tigers at once, with confirming accounts, part 2 {1965}   Old lion had to be shot, as it was about to kill a 6 year old Siberian tiger named Nicholas in its prime. {1949} Guinness books/Animal facts, Lion named Nero killed Tim the tiger in an Australian zoo, the male tiger Tim was reported to be large. Animal facts and feats: a Guinness record of the animal ... - Page 77 Gerald L. Wood - 1972 - ‎Snippet view a Guinness record of the animal kingdom Gerald L. Wood. animal than the lion, and has a superior fighting technique. ... The following month a large Bengal tiger named "Tim" was killed by a lion named "Nero" atPerth Zoological Gardens, ... (1937)   Beatty states in an interview hes also seen many one on one fights, and usually one of the cats is dead before he can break it up. These cats would only be tigers killed, as no lions had died in his act at this time. In the Chicago Tribune Beatty is asked about one on one fights, he then states he does not stage many of those as its too expensive...but then says hes had plenty of such fights happen accidentally.  And before he can stop it, one of the cats is dead.  He goes on to say since 1927, 25 tigers were killed by lions, and no lions killed by tigers. So it is clear here although lions gang up, many tigers were also killed in one on one battles to lions. By deductive reasoning, to be as fair as possible, let's say aprox a 3rd of the 25 tigers killed were female, that cuts the number to about 18.  Beatty had seen many gang fights, and many one on one fights.  So to be fair, we can split the #18 in half, to nine.  Still, in a fair fight to the death, the tiger was killed by the lion 9 times in ten years.  The tiger never winning in any fights to the death vs the lion one on one.  This confirms Beatty's statement, " The lion will whip a tiger 9 times out of 10." {1936}   Beatty's lion Boss Tweed kills 3 tigers at once inside a 3ft wide circus chute. Into the chute ran three Bengal tigers with Boss Tweed in pursuit. "For twenty minutes they battled. Boss Tweed killed the three tigers, but himself was almost torn to ribbons. He recovered but somehow he never seemed to be the same. His spirit or his fighting nerve was gone. The other morning I opened his cage door and he was dead, for seven years I trained him, the longest of any of my cats. I was greatly attached to him,2734591 {1936} In the Charleston Gazette, Bengal tiger attacks lion, the fight does not last long, the lion literally tearing the tiger to pieces. Important to understand, this was a complete fair fight, as the tiger attacked the lion first, yet the lion won very quickly. (1935) Lion kills tiger over night at Bostock's, and eats every particle of his body except skull.  ory of the Bostock lion that vanquished a tiger and over, ate every particle of his body, except for the skull {1934} lion kills mature Bengal tiger Logansport Press, November 15, 1934.   Peru Nov.14 "The much debated question of which would win if a full grown African lion and a mature Bengal Tiger battled to death was settled at least locally this morning when a lion killed a tiger at the Circus animal barn. The battle between the king  of the jungle and the striped  member of the cat, occurred a I short time after the animals  were unloaded from the train and taken to winter quarters. The two beasts mixed in a furious battle and before trainers could separate them the lion had killed the Tiger. The event was the first battle to death between animals at the local circus quarters officials said." {1933} Lion kills wild tiger in Beatty's movie the Bigcage. The 1st fight staged was a lion named Sultan vs a wild tiger named Tommy: This first fight in the Bigcage actually gave the advantage to the tiger.  Beatty allowed the tiger to jump the lion by surprise. The lion did not see the tiger, it was focused on attacking Beatty instead.  The tiger chosen, was untamed, wild, it had never been in the cage with a lion nor in Beatty's act. The untamed tiger was chosen on purpose so that a good fight would ensue for the film. Here is the full link and article to this account. {1930} Oct. 31   Lion kills male tiger in Italy Turin.  pg/fc14c71366d9416993ffd038c33fdd9f.jpg {1928}        Lion kills 3 tigers, at once. Trainer Capt. Frank Phillips, says a lion can kill a tiger any time, and recalls an experience once seeing one lion kill 3 tigers in an animal act. Source: October 11, 1928 {1924} Sick lion kills tiger "The Jungle behind Bars" by Courtney Ryley Cooper King Edward the lion had not felt well, and had not eaten in days. . For several days King Edward had been "off feed," and to tempt his appetite, Lucia Zora, his trainer, conceived the idea of feeding him a live chicken. The full excerpt of this story reported in the link below. {1923} Famous French Scientist Arago witnesses a lion that killed a tiger. Darwin (1) describes a struggle took place in a menagerie between a lion and a tiger, and ended with the victory of the latter 'while Arago (2) describes another where the victim was the tiger .,%2Bmentre%2BArago%2B(2)%2Bne%2Bdescrive%2Bun%27altra%2Bin%2Bcui%2Bla%2Bvittima%2Bfu%2Bla%2Btigre.%2522%26dq%3D%2522descrive%2Buna%2Blotta%2Bsvoltasi%2Bin%2Bun%2Bserraglio%2Btra%2Bun%2Bleone%2Be%2Buna%2Btigre%2Be%2Bterminata%2Bcon%2Bla%2Bvittoria%2Bdi%2Bquest%27%2Bultima,%2Bmentre%2BArago%2B(2)%2Bne%2Bdescrive%2Bun%27altra%2Bin%2Bcui%2Bla%2Bvittima%2Bfu%2Bla%2Btigre.%2522&prev=search Original book source before translation in Italian. {1920} Lion kills tiger at zoo. The Nation and the Athenaeum volume 28, page 335 On the opposite page, devoted to vital news, a third of a column is occupied by an account of how a tiger was killed by a lion at the Zoo {1911}   Bostock tells of an account of a lion named Rover who killed a male tiger named Mentor.  In 1911, Frank Bostock gave an account, which would soon after have been considered unguarded, of fatal fights in his menagerie between lions tigers and other wild animals some years previously. " I saw one lion seize a smaller lion by the throat with his teeth and dash its head against the bars of the runway, cracking it like an egg shell. This was child's play compared with separating a lion and tiger which generally have an instinctive hatred for each other: "The tiger lay dead in the corner of the cage with his throat half torn away" Here is the original source in Bostock's own words telling of the whole account. (1908)   Lion kills large tiger. Trainer George Conklin 40 years experience, witnesses lion kill big male tiger in viscous fight inside a small holding cage, at the John O'brien's circus.  "When morning arrived we found the two In the lion's cage,  the tiger dead and the lion all chewed and clawed to pieces, but still full of fight.!" {1903} lion kills huge tiger in Florence Italy, ~Dundee Evening Post, Angus Scotland, September 26, 1903. Sept. 26 1903 Lion fights tiger  Terrifying scene at menagerie "An exciting incident has occurred at a traveling menagerie in Florence. Whilst a tamer was engaged in his performance in the lions den, one of the animals managed to break through the door into the neighboring cage, which was a huge tiger.  A fierce fight ensued between the beast, the tiger finally succumbing to ghastly wounds in the neck.  The lion also was badly bitten.  In  the meantime the visitors had fled panic-stricken, and the terrified tamer had disappeared from the scene." {1899} Indian Rajah stages fight between multiple animals in one ring. A FIGHT OF WILD BEASTS. Taranaki Herald, Volume XLVIII, Issue 11707, 23 December 1899, Page 4 Soldiers watch as lion kills buffalo and then kills huge male tiger, described as slain monster. This fight took place in northern India witnessed by the British troupes there.  This could be possibly an Asiatic lion killing a large Bengal tiger. After the lion had killed the tiger, it did not want to stop fighting and went after a bear in the same ring, but because of the wounds inflicted on it from the fight with the tiger, the lion was later killed by the bear. After this the bear later died in a fight with a horse as it was also previously wounded by the lion. (1855)   Real account of Asiatic Lion killing Bengal tiger in the wild of India Surat. Source: The book, "Perils and Pleasures of a Hunters life." Online accessible links of the book below. Click the link below, click full screen on the book page, and enter the page 223 for the full account online. Click the link below, page 208. The forgottenbooks page 202, {1808}   Lion kills tiger in staged gladiatorial style fight in Verona Rome theater.  The same lion, then went on to kill a horse and donkey in the same fight. In Ancient Rome, the circus was a building for the exhibition of horse and chariot races, equestrian shows, staged battles, gladiatorial combat and displays of (and fights with) trained animals. The article was published in 1834 in Gentleman's Magazine, but the account was recorded from a diary in Jul. 4th, 1808. (The Gentleman's Magazine) "Mr. Bolton said that a friend of his saw, in the circus at Verona, a battle between a lion, and a tiger, a horse, and an ass. The tiger at first showed symptoms of fear, and wished to decline the battle with the lion. He fought however at last with great fury but, though he foiled the lion for a time by his alertness, soon yielded on a close contact to the other's matchless strength. The horse was dreadfully terrified from the first, and became an easy conquest. The ass, the last attacked, was all the time quite unconcerned, browzing on the ground, and when at length assailed, bit and kicked with great fury, but in the end fell. The lion chiefly used his paw, with which he struck tremendous blows." {1790} Lion kills tiger and bear in Vienna in the same fight. Sir Thomas Lawrence PRA FRS (13 April 1769 – 7 January 1830) was a leading English portrait painter and president of the Royal Academy. Lawrence was a child prodigy. One of Lawrence's works below.   Sir Thomas paints William Lock below.  In Sir Thomas's letters, he mentions Lock traveled through Europe with his tutor; while doing so, in Vienna, Lock witnessed a staged fight between a lion, tiger, and bear.  The lion killed both the tiger and bear, but later died because of fatigue vs a horse.                             William Lock                           Sir Thomas Lawrence's Letter-bag  By Sir Thomas Lawrence, Elizabeth Croft  Pages, 280,281 Lion kills bear and tiger in one fight, source and links below.

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#127 [url]

Mar 3 17 8:25 AM

Hey guys.. Just wonder what happened to animalsversesanimals website? Peter is keep sayign it got hacked.. And what happened to other stupid tiger fans like peter, Guate, Pckts, Apollo,...etc
Anyone know what are they doing in real life?

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#128 [url]

Mar 3 17 8:36 AM

Just wonder what happened to animalsversesanimals website? Peter is keep sayign it got hacked.. And what happened to other stupid tiger fans like peter, Guate, Pckts, Apollo,...etc Anyone know what are they doing in real life?

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#129 [url]

Mar 3 17 9:16 PM

Yeah animal vs animal got hacked by tiger fans.  Peter left and started his own site called Wildfact.  You can join here.  But...if you join and go on there saying anything favoring a lion in a fight vs a tiger, they will ban you very quickly.  They're incredibly scared to even touch the subject, even if you say something like the lion fights differently or it uses head shaking skills to dodge opponents or shaking techniques to inflict more damage when biting in a ripping motion, they will ban you.  To them the lion must be just like the tiger, only it must be dumber, weaker, smaller, weigh less, and its head must be smaller, its teeth smaller, its muscles smaller, anyways you get the point the lion must be inferior especially with data and size wise, but anything else, like aggression or fighting skills, you can't mention that stuff on there, they'll go hay wire and freak out. Its pretty sad, their like paranoid over there, you should try to join and mention some of these real full proof accounts, see how they handle real facts, I doubt they can take it.

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#130 [url]

Mar 4 17 2:12 PM

But peter said someone else hacked animal vs animal website to others. I am agreeing with them that the tiger is larger. But lion is better fighter due to their lifestyle. And what... the prehisotric America lion is evern bigger than tiger and obviously stronger than tiger. However, their argument is so stupid. So what happened to other guys like Asad and Bold... What happened to them? Why the hell did they hacked animal vs animal website. They couldn't handle that lion is stronger?

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#131 [url]

Mar 5 17 4:09 PM

Fuck Pckts wrote:
But peter said someone else hacked animal vs animal website to others. I am agreeing with them that the tiger is larger. But lion is better fighter due to their lifestyle. And what... the prehisotric America lion is evern bigger than tiger and obviously stronger than tiger. However, their argument is so stupid. So what happened to other guys like Asad and Bold... What happened to them? Why the hell did they hacked animal vs animal website. They couldn't handle that lion is stronger?


Yeah the tiger fans hack stuff all the time, they can't handle the lion would win or whatever its pretty lame, Peter bans everyone on his Wildfact site, I mean Wildfake, anyone that post something in favor of the lion or different than the lion, he just bans you.  I mean you could back it up with real evidence, Peter would still ban you, that's what happened to me several times on there, its pretty dumb.  

Yeah Bold is around, he's on youtube a lot, he's debating still, a lot on weights and stuff, BoldChamp is Brentlion on these youtube threads, he's still debating, you'll see his comments in there. 

Boldchamp has also posted on this site, that great poster Lionclaws also has, and Assad used to, not sure he's posted for awhile on here though, but you'll see some of the comments.

What poster were you on the old yuku sites, because if you haven't been around for awhile there is a lot of new info that has been discovered and survaced for both sides, and many of the accounts on the tigers side are getting less and less legit, most were not fair fights or adult male lions killed, there isn't even a dozen adult male lions killed by tigers through history in fair fights, meanwhile there is at least 24 irrefutable accounts of lions killing male tigers in fair fights, and a total of 60 dead tigers in total.  Not including all the fights the tiger has lost to the lion not unto death.  

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