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Oct 22 15 1:39 PM

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Within this thread are multiple accounts of leopards killing tigers, even large male tigers. No where is there any account in existence of a leopard killing an adult male lion, on the contrary there are accounts of single lion's killing two leopards at once seen here, http://wildanimalwarfare.yuku.com/topic/13/Lion-kills-leopards#.Vr1esObm01k











{2015}

Leopard fights male tiger amidst a roof top in India, roars and commotion is heard by witness,
the tiger appeared to fall to its death while fighting the leopard over territory. 


Carcass of the tiger which died in Nagarahole.— Photo: Special Arrangement













Within this book, trainer Louis Roth talks about a small leopard killing a large tiger.



Louis-Roth.jpg
lions have killed polar bears, small leopard has killed a 
large tiger. Usually a Polar bear can kill any of the big cats
page 204-205 - 









{1937}


Frank Buck favors the black leopard over the tiger.




Leopard dominates tiger
 


buck_cravath23.jpg 
What about pound for pound," I asked the animal expert who has spent most of his life 'bringing 'em back alive.' "There's only one answer for that one," Buck said. "It is the black leopard, a pack of dynamite which is always looking for a fight, a lightweight that even the tiger ducks. "














{1924}

Boy's Life Mag.

Leopard disembowels male tiger.

http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/9e2ef88a39de4057b837fd071bb8f40d.jpg

https://books.google.com/books?id=0IPpDUfyMikC&pg=PA15&dq=+throat+leopard+tiger+fought&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Vma4VJnlGISGyQTshIC4Dg&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=throat%20leopard%20tiger%20fought&f=false    






{1921}


Female leopard named beauty almost kills large aggressive male tiger Rajah.
This account does not have to be counted as the tiger seemed to scratch its eyes impairing its sight in the moment.  But the account is worth mentioning, as it was a female leopard, and it shows the speed in which a leopard can leap at the opponent making it difficult for the tiger to defend as confirmed by the other accounts.


"Beauty was free, to fight as she chose, and her teeth sank deep in the throat of the tiger. But only for a moment. Then she sprang free, to scratch and tear with all her strength at the Samson-like vulnerability of her enemy its eyes."

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/72145638/






















1908



Leopard Kills Tiger


A battle to' the death between a tiger and a leopard in the arena of the winter of the Wallace show yesterday afternoon that Animal Trainer Garstang was forced 

~Meriden Daily Journal - Feb 4, 1908
http://www.google.com/search?q=to%27+the+death+between+a+tiger+and+a+leopard+in+Hie+arena+of+the+winter+of+the+Wallace+show+yester+day+afternoon+that+Animal+Trainer+Garstang+was+forced+lo%A0...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=8WaNUqvsIMH-iwKJ6oH4Dw&sa=N





"But quick as the Bengal tiger had been, the panther was quicker. All thought of Jealousy vanished at Eight of the attack on his mistress. Before the tiger could use tooth or claw the lithe, strong-limbed panther had launched himself right at the tiger's throat. Over and over on the floor of the cage the two great cats rolled. Ordinarily the panther ?  would have been no match for the far larger tiger. But the panther had caught his grip first, settling his sharp, deep-biting teeth in the tiger's throat. This prevented the tiger's using his teeth effectually. But his claws, especially those on his strong hind legs, could be used. Again and again he struck out with them, ripping through the panther's skin like a soft glove. But he could not shake the deadly grip Chita had on his throat. Although he might be torn to pieces by the great claws. Chita meant to hold on until he felt his teeth meet in his opponent's windpipe. And through all the terrible struggle. Diogenes, the Numldlan lion, sat on his pedestal, lazy, goodnatured, only calmly Interested in the life and death fight of his fierce fellow pupils. "When the circus men separated the two big cats the Bengal tiger was dead, and the black panther, torn In twenty pieces, was dying. Carmen was unhurt, except for a few slight bruises caused by her fall on the floor of the cage. ~The San Francisco Call 3 July 1904 ⺠Page 12 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QACJxgKTyucJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/46552793/+site:newspapers.com+lion+bengal+tiger+enclosure+fought&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


Screenshot (117)


http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=MM19041119.2.61











{1904}


Trainer talks about how many people are surprised to know a leopard can kill a tiger.  He goes on to say why.  Stating a leopard comes at its opponents wind pipe so fast, they have almost no time to react.  This is perhaps why the tigers often lost to the leopards in Lucknow.






















{1882}  Trainer Herman Bogger, says Leopard is king, his female leopard Puss kills big wild male bengal tiger. 

















{1868}

In the Central Park menagerie, leopard dies, but manages to kill male bengal tiger. 



















{1800s}



Repeated fights were staged by the Indian kings in Lucknow India, it was recorded the tigers could hardly ever beat them. So this is not just one fight, it is many that the tigers lost against leopards.  




Front Cover







Tigers were often pitted against leopards but the leopards were so powerful that 
the tigers could hardly ever beat them.... She adds that the king had also 
arranged a fight between two tigers and a horse, who had the distinction of 
having killed ...



The Lucknow Omnibus - Page 119

Abdul Halim Sharar, Rosie Llewellyn-Jones, Veena Talwar Oldenburg - 2001 - âSnippet view
Eventually the stronger one brought the weaker to the ground and tore it apart with its teeth, though itself covered with wounds from head to tail. ... but despite its size it is said that most of the leopards that fought against tigers in Lucknow were such marvellous fighters that they often were victorious.... In the course of the fight both antagonists were grievously wounded. The one that was vanquished either fell down and died in the arena or, acknowledging defeat, fled from its enemy.










their claws. Eventually the stronger one brought the weaker to the ground and tore it apart with its teeth, though itself covered with wounds from head to tail. Leopards The leopard is small but despite its size it is said that most of the leopards ...

serp..1.0.0.7chnFLsFJW0#safe=active&tbm=bks&q=+The+leopard+is+small+but+despite+its+size+it+is+said+that+most+of+the+leopards+...









Page 119











d4680624x.jpg



Even in ancient Rome it appears that leopards killed tigers.



image

Last Edited By: starfox Jan 17 17 9:34 AM. Edited 37 times

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#1 [url]

Nov 15 15 2:52 AM

I am highly skeptical on some of these accounts, but I have seen 1 or 2 of them that ended in a bloody draw were both animals were killed. Obviously a tiger would win 9/10, but it can't win all of them. Besides these animals coexist with one another so at some point, something like this should happen. It's a game of a chance over time. How many wins can the tiger get before one lucky leopard manages to get a win? Same thing with a smaller weaker man against a larger and stronger man.

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Last Edited By: malikc6 Nov 15 15 2:54 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#2 [url]

Nov 17 15 9:20 AM

The tigers did not win in Lucknow India, and there were many fights staged there.  The other accounts coincide with this.  Both cats end up destroying each other by the end.  But the point is, the tiger no matter what the size, seems to be far more vulnerable than the lion without the mane protection and fight experience. 

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#3 [url]

Jan 23 16 8:52 AM

Ok, starfox, what's the point of showing accounts of leopards killing tigers? oh, i see, you're trying to paint the picture that tigers are whooped by leopards, but lions aren't (ha ha ha).
Here we go, the protection of the mane is so completely exaggerated! The role of the mane isn't even to serve as this type of impenetrable shield, but as a means for lions to display their strength to AVOID serious fighting! And the whole "fighting experience advantage" is funny because lions don't fight nearly as much as you want to believe.


The tiger is the only animal the mighty brown bear avoids 

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#4 [url]

Jan 27 16 5:43 PM

That's great Streetfighter and I guess will take your opinion over the hard facts and real accounts that happened in Lucknow India in which many leopard vs tiger fights were staged, and as it was recorded the tiger could hardly ever win. 

Countless accounts from real trainers who have seen many fights testify, yes the lions mane absolutely is a huge advantage.

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35987

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#5 [url]

Mar 22 16 1:32 PM

My comment is outside tiger vs lion. I do want to say that these fights don't prove too much other than what I said previously. It's big chance against small chance, and sometimes the smaller chance lucks out. A leopard is about the same size as the average North American man going against a 500-600 lb tiger. While you can find instances of leopards besting tigers, one can easily find more instances of tigers killing leopards. There's a video of a tigress that killed a leopard that stumbled into its area and consumed it, and they are lighter and weaker than males. Most of these instances took place in the wild rather than happening in a staged fight.



Here's also a video of a leopard that ran up a tree to avoid getting killed by the tiger.





Tigers have also been known to usurp leopard kills if they get the chance to do so. Trying to say a tiger can barely win against a leopard is just silly and borderline close to saying that tigers are pathetic. And let me ask you this Star. Do you think that a leopard could kill a lioness because the lioness doesn't have a mane? Or a male lion that has its mane shaved off?

Overall, tigers in the wild kill leopards to eliminate competition or sometimes for prey. Just about every account you've shown in this thread shows captive tigers getting killed by leopards. One instance I'm highly skeptical about is the "Boy's Life" one. Also where is the account of a leopard killing a tiger in Rome other than a picture? 

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Last Edited By: malikc6 Mar 22 16 2:02 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#6 [url]

Mar 30 16 10:40 AM

On the contrary we do not have that many accounts of tigers killing leopards, I agree that they should of course win, but repeated fights were staged in Lucknow India and the reports were that the tigers could barely ever beat them.  The advantage the tiger sometimes has over the lion is speed and hind leg agility, it does not have such an advantage over the leopard.  Tigers don't seem to move their heads that well in battle, and the leopards lunge straight for the head and throat.  The tiger can't seem to get them off, it has no mane protection, the leopard usually gets mortally wounded as well, but as the accounts we have show, the tiger has a far greater chance of dying vs a leopard than a lion.  So I think this says something pretty considerable of the whole lion vs tiger debate. 

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#7 [url]

Apr 2 16 10:46 PM

starfox wrote:
On the contrary we do not have that many accounts of tigers killing leopards, I agree that they should of course win, but repeated fights were staged in Lucknow India and the reports were that the tigers could barely ever beat them.  The advantage the tiger sometimes has over the lion is speed and hind leg agility, it does not have such an advantage over the leopard.  Tigers don't seem to move their heads that well in battle, and the leopards lunge straight for the head and throat.  The tiger can't seem to get them off, it has no mane protection, the leopard usually gets mortally wounded as well, but as the accounts we have show, the tiger has a far greater chance of dying vs a leopard than a lion.  So I think this says something pretty considerable of the whole lion vs tiger debate. 

Yeah its clear that leopards are a lot more agile than tigers. In fact in some parts of India, they say that sometimes a leopard can actually be harder to defend against than a tiger, even when multiple people are involved. A tiger that's going against multiple armed humans (spears or sharp sticks) tend to focus on trying to overpower and kill 1 attacker at once, while a leopard will attack everyone with a barrage of different attacks with extreme ferocity and agility. Do you recall the instance in India where a leopard attacked more than 11 people, and another instance was 6 people injured? Despite the tiger's heavier and stronger built, it's not as hard to kill if multiple attackers are on it since they don't focus on attacking everyone. A good example of this would probably be when tigers are overwhelmed by Dholes. They kill a lot of them, but its one by one, and during this time, the dholes are slowly tearing the tiger apart. 

There are a lot of accounts of tigers killing leopards. Mainly because tigers have been known to hunt and eat them (watch the video I posted of a tigress killing and consuming a male leopard) and kill them for competition. Sure leopards have killed tigers before in staged fights and in zoo's, but why don't leopards have the same luck in the wild when they are forced to fight them? A few heavy paw swipes would be enough to incapacitate a leopard and possibly even kill it. 500-600 lb cat against a similar built 160 lb cat. Very little chance for the smaller cat. 

But Starfox. Since you think that it's the lack of a mane that gives the leopard a chance, wouldn't you say that a leopard can potentially bring down a big male lion with no mane, or a lioness? How much different would it be from it fighting a tiger?


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#9 [url]

Apr 8 16 7:28 AM

"A few heavy paw swipes would be enough to incapacitate a leopard and possibly even kill it."

You tiger-fans always forgetting that phanterines never use their paws for striking or hitting their preys, just for grappling them. The only striking cat is the male lion. Please show me a vid where the tiger or the leopard get an advantage by hitting or striking their foes or preys.

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#10 [url]

Apr 8 16 8:01 AM

Keith wrote:
"A few heavy paw swipes would be enough to incapacitate a leopard and possibly even kill it."

You tiger-fans always forgetting that phanterines never use their paws for striking or hitting their preys, just for grappling them. The only striking cat is the male lion. Please show me a vid where the tiger or the leopard get an advantage by hitting or striking their foes or preys.

Yes their paws and forearms are used for grappling, but also for striking. I don't know why you seem to think that the lion is the only cat that strikes. Pretty much every cat uses paw swipes for striking and grappling. If you ever watched the Clyde Beatty video of the tiger and lion fighting, you would see that the tiger uses its paw swipes to knock its opponent's head down and go in for a neck bite. Of course a tiger's paw swipe isn't going to incapacitate or kill a lion with a few hits like it would to a cat weighing 150-180 lbs. A tiger's paw swipe is estimated to be over 10,000 lbs of force and probably more according to this video. Check this out.  


Keep in mind that the tiger being tested wasn't serious, as that would be a serious hazard. The other link I'm going to show isn't an instance of a tiger doing this but rather a lion doing it, but this shows how even a single paw swipe can do some serious damage to smaller animals/humans. 


So overall, I don't think that a leopard would be able to take many hits and still be able to keep fighting. A well placed paw swipe would break its neck or back. This is why I am skeptical of many of these instances of leopards killing tigers (except three of them which I've seen before). Heck if the tiger grabbed the leopard and pinned it, the fight's over. A big supposed account I'm skeptical of is the roman picture of a leopard biting a tiger's neck and that being used to prove the leopard killed it.   My question to Starfox is if a leopard can somehow manage to kill a much larger more powerful cat like the tiger, shouldn't the leopard be able to do the same to a male lion with no mane, or a lioness? 




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Last Edited By: malikc6 Apr 8 16 8:10 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#11 [url]

Apr 8 16 3:20 PM

No Malick. Definitely no. A tiger will never break the spine of another animal, not even a leopard. Tigers, same as leopards, use their paws to slash and unbalance their foes or preys so as to gain a position to get a hold in the neck area ( the throat pipe is its a big animal, in the cervical if it is small). Lions break the spine of other lions, zebras, and even grizzlies (see All Empires - History forum for many accounts). But this is never the case of tigers or other cats.

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#13 [url]

Apr 8 16 9:41 PM

"shouldn't the leopard be able to do the same to a male lion with no mane, or a lioness?"

My answer is yeah, with the only difference that both the unmanned lion and the lioness are much more used to playing and fighting and do not leave their throats exposed so easily as the tiger. I am referring to the fact that tigers fight in a bipedal position much more vulnerable to a bite from the leopard.

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#14 [url]

Apr 9 16 7:51 AM

Keith wrote:
"shouldn't the leopard be able to do the same to a male lion with no mane, or a lioness?"

My answer is yeah, with the only difference that both the unmanned lion and the lioness are much more used to playing and fighting and do not leave their throats exposed so easily as the tiger. I am referring to the fact that tigers fight in a bipedal position much more vulnerable to a bite from the leopard.

The reason why I brought up my claim of a tiger being able to kill a leopard in a single blow was a reference to how easily it could kill it. It's been a long while since I've been in the lion vs tiger debate so I am very rusty when it comes to some accounts, but I do think that there are instances of tigers killing other animals with their paws. I can always just ask Ptigris if he has any. The video I posted isn't necessarily sensationalist. They used a tiger to analyze how hard it could hit, and it's paw swipe is immense, even when it was just playing! A few of those paw swipes could destroy a leopard. 

 Remember that the leopard is much smaller and lighter than the tiger, and tigresses and lionesses have effortlessly killed them one on one. Watch the video's I posted. One of them is a tigress that chased down, mauled, and killed a leopard, and even consumed it. That happens quite a lot actually. Tigers will feed on their competition sometimes. Starfox has all these accounts of leopards besting tigers, (and I'm skeptical of many rightfully so), but my question is, why do these instances only happen in zoos? Why don't leopards have the same luck when they're fighting them in the wild? I'd be just as skeptical if he had supposed instances of leopards killing lions. Lions outright destroy them in the wild. Even a subadult lion could run a leopard up a tree from its kill.  

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#15 [url]

Apr 9 16 11:15 AM

Malick your skeptical because you still have a bias.  The idea is to find the real truth on the subject, and to do that you have to start out with no bias. Most of the people who still can't favor the lion now its because they never wanted to in the first place. Were up dating these list all time, more and more info is coming out on the lion kills male tiger thread.  The latest is Prime finding out that the person witnessing a lion kill 3 tigers at once was a top mix cat trainer named Capt. Frank Phillips.  He is on record the youngest lion tiger trainer, starting at the age of 15 born into a circus family.  His account is on the year 1928 on that list, more info and pics will be put in to verify the account. This like many new instances of info was not known during the time P.Tigris was debating. 

As far as a tiger killing a leopard with one blow.  No account shows that, they just don't kill like that.  They more or less grab and pull in and then hold, and then go for the throat or neck.  And there are no accounts that we have of a tiger killing a leopard and surviving.  I think they totally should be able to do it, but we don't have any, the best we have is both cats killed eachother.  And that is precisely what the accounts in Lucknow showed, it often was mutual destruction, the tigers could hardly ever beat them.  Lions not only have the mane, but they have the unique head mobility, so when you couple that together it makes for a far deadly opponent and a better defensive opponent at protecting its neck and throat. 

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#16 [url]

Apr 9 16 1:53 PM

starfox wrote:
Malick your skeptical because you still have a bias.  The idea is to find the real truth on the subject, and to do that you have to start out with no bias. Most of the people who still can't favor the lion now its because they never wanted to in the first place. Were up dating these list all time, more and more info is coming out on the lion kills male tiger thread.  The latest is Prime finding out that the person witnessing a lion kill 3 tigers at once was a top mix cat trainer named Capt. Frank Phillips.  He is on record the youngest lion tiger trainer, starting at the age of 15 born into a circus family.  His account is on the year 1928 on that list, more info and pics will be put in to verify the account. This like many new instances of info was not known during the time P.Tigris was debating. 

As far as a tiger killing a leopard with one blow.  No account shows that, they just don't kill like that.  They more or less grab and pull in and then hold, and then go for the throat or neck.  And there are no accounts that we have of a tiger killing a leopard and surviving.  I think they totally should be able to do it, but we don't have any, the best we have is both cats killed eachother.  And that is precisely what the accounts in Lucknow showed, it often was mutual destruction, the tigers could hardly ever beat them.  Lions not only have the mane, but they have the unique head mobility, so when you couple that together it makes for a far deadly opponent and a better defensive opponent at protecting its neck and throat. 

Not commenting on lion vs tiger. Simply leopards against tigers. I'm not saying that tigers have killed leopards with one blow, but that they're so much more superior than leopards that they have the power to do so. See the video of how hard a tiger's paw swipe is. This is why I'm skeptical of many of these accounts, and you keep saying the same thing star. Please answer me this. If these leopards have killed so many tigers in staged fights and in zoo's, why don't they have the same luck against tigers in the wild? They either run away from the tiger, or die trying to defend themselves. We don't see instances of leopards and tigers managing to destroy both each other because it almost never happens (I say almost because there is that LITTLE chance that it may happen but not be documented but the same can be said about anything). 

If a lion was killed by a leopard, I'd still be skeptical. Wolverineclaws years ago posted an account of a leopard supposedly killing a two year old male lion and eating it. Multiple tiger fans were skeptical about it, and many thought it was a fake account. Would you believe something like that happened? A leopard managing to bring down a 2 year old male lion? Once again, I believe a few of these instances that you posted, but there are ones that I shake my head in question to. Once again, tigers occasionally EAT leopards. 

Anyways do me a favor star. Go to this thread showing leopards killing lions, and tell me if you are also skeptical of many of these instances. The leopard is a powerful cat for its size, but against a lion or tiger? 




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#17 [url]

Apr 9 16 6:49 PM



I totally agree, I just got back from another sanctuary today in Florida, many tigers there, just 2 male lions, one was very old and not healthy.  One of the tigers was huge, very big, the arms looked quite strong, the body long and lanky.  I don't think a leopard should stand a chance against some of the largest strongest tigers, but again, I'm going by the evidence in Lucknow, this is India, and back in the 1800s if there was any bias it was for the tiger.  So the reports there had said, the tigers hardly ever won, I don't know what to conclude from that except that it would seem quite a bit difficult for a tiger to kill a leopard.  In the wild I think things are different, the leopard is going to run from the larger animal and not risk injury, in an enclosure the leopard is forced to fight.

As far as the supposed leopard kills lion thread, I'm not counting juvenile lions, that's too young.  That's why I posted only full grown large male tigers killed by leopards.  But it just so happens there aren't any full grown lions that a leopard is on record killing. 

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#18 [url]

Apr 9 16 8:04 PM

starfox wrote:


I totally agree, I just got back from another sanctuary today in Florida, many tigers there, just 2 male lions, one was very old and not healthy.  One of the tigers was huge, very big, the arms looked quite strong, the body long and lanky.  I don't think a leopard should stand a chance against some of the largest strongest tigers, but again, I'm going by the evidence in Lucknow, this is India, and back in the 1800s if there was any bias it was for the tiger.  So the reports there had said, the tigers hardly ever won, I don't know what to conclude from that except that it would seem quite a bit difficult for a tiger to kill a leopard.  In the wild I think things are different, the leopard is going to run from the larger animal and not risk injury, in an enclosure the leopard is forced to fight.

As far as the supposed leopard kills lion thread, I'm not counting juvenile lions, that's too young.  That's why I posted only full grown large male tigers killed by leopards.  But it just so happens there aren't any full grown lions that a leopard is on record killing. 
How can it be too much different in the wild when the leopards are cornered by hungry tigers, forced to fight them, and then die trying to do so? Here's the thing Starfox. An animal when caught is almost always going to fight its hardest, whether it's a long struggle or a quick one (unless instant death) against a predator. A leopard being forced to fight in an enclosure like a zoo or a staged fight would be no different than a leopard that's being forced to fight a tiger in the wild that's trying to prey on it or kill them for competition.


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#19 [url]

Apr 9 16 8:09 PM

By the way, one of the accounts of leopards besting lions is an account of a leopardess besting a lioness which in my opinion is full of crap. That's not a juvenile. Once again, do you see how a person would look at that and shake their head in question? My skepticism has nothing to do with bias whatsoever. Wolverineclaws is the same guy that has a thread about a dog that brought down a lion back in the roman times by itself. I have a right to feel like that was either made up, or a lot of detail was left out.

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#20 [url]

Apr 10 16 1:43 AM

But again is the same thing. A leopard may be too quick for an unmanned big cat such as a lioness or a tiger (male or female). And this may be the case both in the wild and in captivity.

Concerning the size of the tiger, I disagree with Starfox. The size may even be a handicap for the tiger since here agility and speed are crucial and the larger the animal the less agile and fast. My opinion is supported by thousands of examples of leopard and specially cougars killing big bears, including grizzlies and polars.

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